EdricBF Posted October 1, 2019 Share #1 Posted October 1, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi, My Tele-Elmar 135mm f/4 (39mm filter) back-focus terribly in my M9 below f/8 (OK above and beyond that), and I have read lots of remarks about focus "problems" with that lens, some solved mechanically but others not at all. Nevertheless, I noticed more complaints from M9 users (Full-Frame) than from M8 users (APS-C), and I tried the lens in my Fuji X-T3 with the Fuji M-Mount Adapter. The focusing results were great for any distance and aperture setting. Rotating the focus ring up to its mechanical stop at infinity turns out great pictures with the Fuji, but not with the M9 below f/8, otherwise focus is fine like Fuji. Am I wrong to assume that such critical focusing is something prone to happen to Leica FF bodies, since that lens works fine in my APS-C Fuji? Thanks for any insight, Edric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 Hi EdricBF, Take a look here Tele-Elmar 135 focus prob in M9: a Full-Frame sensor thing?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
a.noctilux Posted October 1, 2019 Share #2 Posted October 1, 2019 Hello Edric, I use Tele-Elmar 4/135mm for decades and I have some samples with focus more or less accurate. In fact I own three T-E 135mm with two units out of specifications in focus coupling (to be adjusted ! ). Maybe yours needs some adjustment on it's focus coupling mechanism. Or may it be that the lens optical head is not the right one, marked with same serial number as the mount. If you want to verify that, just unscrew the optical head and check if the "real measured focal length" is compatible with the focussing mount. On the mount, near the infinity mark, at right of "m" you can read the 1/10mm of last digits of the focussing mount, mine is "50" so the mount is to be used with 135.0 mm optical head. One of my T-E is marked "55", so to be used with 135.5mm optical head. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 1, 2019 Share #3 Posted October 1, 2019 Never had any such problem with mine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdricBF Posted October 1, 2019 Author Share #4 Posted October 1, 2019 Thanks a lot for the great info!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 2, 2019 Share #5 Posted October 2, 2019 My (very old) Tele Elmar did show "vagueness" of focus even at film times , typically at 4 and 5,6 : I had it fixed by a 3rd party lab, who told me that they had to adjust the cam positioning (not the shape) , and it was a good job (the head was "right numbered" - see a.noctilux post) ; btw, I have the feel that, someway, the RF coupling of the previous Elmar 135 f4 is more robust… Anyway… there's always the human factor and RF focusing with a 135 is critical, period : wasn't for its size, I would prefer to take always with me my goggled Tele Elmarit… and now that my currently used 135 is an Apo Telyt, in normal usage I simply forget that it can be opened to 3,4... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdricBF Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share #6 Posted October 2, 2019 Thanks, Luigi, fact is I never saw any comments about focus issues with the Apo-Telyts... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted October 2, 2019 Share #7 Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Normal, I think that with decades younger the Apo-Telyt 3.4/135mm can be "better" preserved from time ravages. Newer and with fix optical cell (unscrewable as T-E or Elmar 135), the Apo-Telyt can be difficult to become unadjusted over time. As side note, I forgot to mention that the T-E optical head can have a ring between the mount and the head, maybe this calibrated ring is missing. the T-E optical cell is at right the calibrated ring is aluminium ring to be placed on it when rescrew to the mount Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited October 2, 2019 by a.noctilux Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/302049-tele-elmar-135-focus-prob-in-m9-a-full-frame-sensor-thing/?do=findComment&comment=3829549'>More sharing options...
EdricBF Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share #8 Posted October 2, 2019 Thank you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 2, 2019 Share #9 Posted October 2, 2019 The fact that the M8 does not have framelines for 135mm is one obvious reason why fewer people report problems with a 135 on that camera - they simply don't use that focal length much. The M8 and M9 finders are essentially identical in focusing ability, just with different line patterns. If anything, I had more trouble using a 135 on the M8, and that is because the pictures had to be enlarged 33% more for the same size final print, which made focus errors more obvious. Leica does (or did) print a note in the manuals for the M8/9, suggesting strongly that 135s on either be stopped down several stops (i.e. to f/8). Digital overall has a thinner focus plane that reveals errors sooner than squishy, microns-thick film gelatin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 2, 2019 Share #10 Posted October 2, 2019 You are right about the framelines. However I was in the habit of overrotating it on the M8 and using the 90 mm frame. In practice I found it not too hard to focus, as the focus ring is very smooth and has an optimal throw. In fact, I founs it easier than the Apo-Telyt. The (Tele) Elmar series has a complicated rangefinder coupling where the helicoid drives a connecting metal piece, thus more may go wrong with the lens calibration, and when it is off, it is not the easiest lens to adjust. I suggest that you have yours checked out by a competent technician. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdricBF Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share #11 Posted October 2, 2019 I'll do that, thank you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richardgb Posted October 2, 2019 Share #12 Posted October 2, 2019 22 hours ago, EdricBF said: Hi, My Tele-Elmar 135mm f/4 (39mm filter) back-focus terribly in my M9 below f/8 (OK above and beyond that), and I have read lots of remarks about focus "problems" with that lens, some solved mechanically but others not at all. Nevertheless, I noticed more complaints from M9 users (Full-Frame) than from M8 users (APS-C), and I tried the lens in my Fuji X-T3 with the Fuji M-Mount Adapter. The focusing results were great for any distance and aperture setting. Rotating the focus ring up to its mechanical stop at infinity turns out great pictures with the Fuji, but not with the M9 below f/8, otherwise focus is fine like Fuji. Am I wrong to assume that such critical focusing is something prone to happen to Leica FF bodies, since that lens works fine in my APS-C Fuji? Thanks for any insight, Edric Not sure you're comparing like with like - the M9 depends on the rangefinder to focus, bu on the X-T3 you're viewing the image live in the focal plane. The accuracy of the latter is indisputable whereas the rangefinder relies on everything being mechanically and optically 'just right'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdricBF Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share #13 Posted October 2, 2019 I know, and that's why I kept rangefinder and EVF out of my test: I simply compared pictures taken with the 135/4 focus ring fully turned to its mechanical stop in both cameras, my M9 and my X-T3 using Fuji's own precision (so they say) M to Fuji Adaptor. No picking on the respective viewfinders. At f/4 Fuji OK, M9 not OK, same focus ring position. f/8 and above, M9 and Fuji fine. The focal plane is supposed to be at same distance in both cameras, trusting the Fujifilm-made adapter. Coming from FF (film and digital) and still using M4/3 and APS-C, I get the focusing characteristics of each system, but I didn't expect the 135 Tele-Elmar to demand so critical a focus wide open: after all, it is not f/2... Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 2, 2019 Share #14 Posted October 2, 2019 1 hour ago, EdricBF said: I know, and that's why I kept rangefinder and EVF out of my test: I simply compared pictures taken with the 135/4 focus ring fully turned to its mechanical stop in both cameras, my M9 and my X-T3 using Fuji's own precision (so they say) M to Fuji Adaptor. No picking on the respective viewfinders. At f/4 Fuji OK, M9 not OK, same focus ring position. f/8 and above, M9 and Fuji fine. The focal plane is supposed to be at same distance in both cameras, trusting the Fujifilm-made adapter. Coming from FF (film and digital) and still using M4/3 and APS-C, I get the focusing characteristics of each system, but I didn't expect the 135 Tele-Elmar to demand so critical a focus wide open: after all, it is not f/2... Thank you. This puts a different aspect on things; the adapter (like most adapters) is designed to focus "beyond infinity" *. If the focus is correct with the lens on the adapter and at its infinity stop on your Fujifilm camera, it is 99% certain that the lens is out of calibration. Not surprising either for a lens from the film era, Leica had to recalibrate the majority of older lenses when they switched to digital. That was not a fault or mistake, but the explanation would go too far into the technical reasons in a post like this. * Which means that the sensor-flange distance is not the same between both cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdricBF Posted October 3, 2019 Author Share #15 Posted October 3, 2019 Makes total sense to me, tks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdricBF Posted November 17, 2019 Author Share #16 Posted November 17, 2019 As a closing update, I just got the info from the seller I purchased the lens from: it needed repair, so I got my money back. Despite the said Leica advice to "close down 2 stops for 135mm lenses", the thing was really not good. Thank you all for the comments! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
epand56 Posted November 18, 2019 Share #17 Posted November 18, 2019 (edited) Time ago I bought a Elmarit-M 135/2.8 with glasses and it was completely off. Back-focused a lot at almost any aperture, so much it was virtually useless. Sent it to Leica along with my M240 and when back it was spot on. The same occurred with a Tele-Elmar 135/4 v. 2 on the M8. Long lenses may often have this problem when being shot on a digital M Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited November 18, 2019 by epand56 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/302049-tele-elmar-135-focus-prob-in-m9-a-full-frame-sensor-thing/?do=findComment&comment=3857099'>More sharing options...
EdricBF Posted November 18, 2019 Author Share #18 Posted November 18, 2019 No more 135's for me... 😀 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephan54 Posted November 18, 2019 Share #19 Posted November 18, 2019 The 135 is fun to use provided it is calibrated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted November 18, 2019 Share #20 Posted November 18, 2019 The early 135 Tele Elmar I bought used is spot-on. I expected to need live view, but RF is faster and accurate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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