Laidley Posted September 1, 2019 Share #1 Posted September 1, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm currently shooting on an M-D but I'm having ISO woes. I love everything about the camera but I'm often times second guessing ISO settings or over thinking the whole thing. It's really just not something I want to have to worry about and trading up to a M10-D is looking more and more appealing, especially since I'm often times shooting on the fly in low light. I would appreciate any advice from other M-D owners or feedback from anyone who moved up to the M10-D. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 1, 2019 Posted September 1, 2019 Hi Laidley, Take a look here ISO Woes. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
robsonj Posted September 2, 2019 Share #2 Posted September 2, 2019 What constitutes ISO woes? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 2, 2019 Share #3 Posted September 2, 2019 ??? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted September 2, 2019 Share #4 Posted September 2, 2019 Please tell us more about your ISO Woes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 2, 2019 Share #5 Posted September 2, 2019 The lack of auto iso must be a problem on a LCD-less camera i guess. I suspect the camera warns when shutter speeds are too high but not when isos are higher than 3200. I may be wrong though as i have no experience with this camera. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsonj Posted September 2, 2019 Share #6 Posted September 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, lct said: The lack of auto iso must be a problem on a LCD-less camera i guess. I suspect the camera warns when shutter speeds are too high but not when isos are higher than 3200. I may be wrong though as i have no experience with this camera. Aaaa I c, makes sense now Edited September 2, 2019 by robsonj Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
52K Posted September 5, 2019 Share #7 Posted September 5, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) Assuming your attraction to the M-D was the ‘shooting a film camera’ experience, why not teach yourself the Sunny 16 rule and work with that for a start. I never use auto ISO and happily switch between my digital M’s and my 1967 M4 film camera. Takes a bit of learning but it’ll make you a better photographer in the long run. Seems like a bit of a waste of money to be trading up such a fine camera as the M-D which I’m pretty sure has no woes. 🙂 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 5, 2019 Share #8 Posted September 5, 2019 8 minutes ago, 52K said: Assuming your attraction to the M-D was the ‘shooting a film camera’ experience, why not teach yourself the Sunny 16 rule and work with that for a start. I never use auto ISO and happily switch between my digital M’s and my 1967 M4 film camera. Takes a bit of learning but it’ll make you a better photographer in the long run. [...] Sunny 16 rule... Not that easy at fast apertures i guess . Last time is used it was 30 years ago more or less. No wonder why i'm that bad a photographer . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 7, 2019 Share #9 Posted September 7, 2019 Why use Auto-ISO at all on a camera like the M-D? The misunderstanding is that ISO is not an exposure parameter like shutter speed or aperture. Basically ISO is a value that will allow you to set the desired exposure values. With film nobody would dream of regarding the changing up to higher ISO as a camera parameter. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 7, 2019 Share #10 Posted September 7, 2019 Auto iso behaves like an exposure parameter when it determines exposure as it does on most of my digital cameras including Leicas. A third exposure parameter so to speak (link). Not sure why M-D cameras could not benefit from it but i have no experience with them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
evikne Posted September 7, 2019 Share #11 Posted September 7, 2019 On 9/5/2019 at 8:28 PM, lct said: Sunny 16 rule... Not that easy at fast apertures i guess . I use the Sunny 16 rule at fast apertures. But I've memorized the opposite end of the scale and start from there. 😊 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 7, 2019 Share #12 Posted September 7, 2019 1 hour ago, lct said: Auto iso behaves like an exposure parameter when it determines exposure as it does on most of my digital cameras including Leicas. A third exposure parameter so to speak (link). Not sure why M-D cameras could not benefit from it but i have no experience with them. The difference is that shutter speed (motion blur) and aperture (DOF) do change the content of the photograph. ISO only changes the technical parameters (noise and dynamic range). It does not change the exposure, like the shutterspeed and aperture do, as it only controls the way in which the camera receives the exposure. It is a practical way to change "film" by each frame, nothing more. On quite a few cameras the only thing it does is control the brightness of the image on the LCD, as they are ISO-invariant. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 7, 2019 Share #13 Posted September 7, 2019 1 hour ago, jaapv said: The difference is that shutter speed (motion blur) and aperture (DOF) do change the content of the photograph. ISO only changes the technical parameters (noise and dynamic range). It does not change the exposure, like the shutterspeed and aperture do, as it only controls the way in which the camera receives the exposure. It is a practical way to change "film" by each frame, nothing more. On quite a few cameras the only thing it does is control the brightness of the image on the LCD, as they are ISO-invariant. Not sure to follow you here. Changing isos does change the content of the photograph in that it darkens or brightens the latter per se, not only the image on the LCD. This allows to prevent overexposure, for instance, w/o changing aperture or shutter speed in any way. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 7, 2019 Share #14 Posted September 7, 2019 No, it does not change the brightness of the photo, as you can adjust it in postprocessing without quality loss on an ISO invariant camera. This means that you can "underexpose" an image at your desired EV at ISO 200, and pull it up to for instance ISO 3200 in Lightroom etc. without quality loss, provided you have an ISO invariant camera. If you search the forum you'll find various threads discussing this theme for different M models. For instance the M8 had better noise performance used this way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 7, 2019 Share #15 Posted September 7, 2019 1 hour ago, jaapv said: No, it does not change the brightness of the photo, as you can adjust it in postprocessing without quality loss on an ISO invariant camera. This means that you can "underexpose" an image at your desired EV at ISO 200, and pull it up to for instance ISO 3200 in Lightroom etc. without quality loss, provided you have an ISO invariant camera. If you search the forum you'll find various threads discussing this theme for different M models. For instance the M8 had better noise performance used this way. Of course it changes brightness in the photo. Been doing this for decades, not to say centuries . Just kidding but you give me the feeling to speak another language my friend. I have no idea on what an iso variant camera may be but i don't need Lightroom or this excellent forum to change exposure by changing isos, typically to prevent overexposure as i said above. It is so easy to check that i'm almost speechless, which is not that usual for a lawyer . Couple of snaps to show how it works below. Leica digital CL, Auto iso in M mode, uncoded LTM lens (Tessar 35/3.5), f/3.5, 1/400s, no exposure compensation, 500 iso: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Leica digital CL, Auto iso in M mode, uncoded LTM lens (Tessar 35/3.5), f/3.5, 1/400s, -1 exposure compensation, 250 iso: Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Leica digital CL, Auto iso in M mode, uncoded LTM lens (Tessar 35/3.5), f/3.5, 1/400s, -1 exposure compensation, 250 iso: ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/300975-iso-woes/?do=findComment&comment=3815290'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 7, 2019 Share #16 Posted September 7, 2019 Yes, and shift the exposure slider and you will get exactly the same image (sometimes with less noise and/or better DR) if your camera is ISO invariant (many are) https://improvephotography.com/34818/iso-invariance/ In that case the ISO setting on the camera is irrelevant, thus proving that it ISO is not an exposure control. A camera without LCD needs (if (sorry to use the word again ) ISO-invariant) no ISO setting, nor Auto-ISO. The brightness can be set on raw conversion. In fact, as explained in the linked article, there can be advantages in shooting at base ISO and underexposing dramatically, especially to protect highlights - but certainly not with a Canon Yes, time has been moving on over the last decades, changes are afoot and we must change with them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 7, 2019 Share #17 Posted September 7, 2019 Sorry but what do sliders and raw conversion have to do with exposure? We are not in PP here. I'm just trying to explain that changing isos is another way of changing exposure when taking photos. When i get clippings i cannot fix them in PP for the most part. Reason why i prevent clippings by changing isos as i did it for the snaps above (250 instead of 500 iso). And this w/o changing aperture or shutter speed in any way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 7, 2019 Share #18 Posted September 7, 2019 Precisely. That is why ISO is not an exposure parameter. Exposure controls the amount of light falling on the sensor. ISO is about the way that light is processed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 7, 2019 Share #19 Posted September 7, 2019 You're playing with words here. Here's what changing iso did in my snaps. As the author i linked above wrote, iso is a "third exposure parameter". Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/300975-iso-woes/?do=findComment&comment=3815359'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 7, 2019 Share #20 Posted September 7, 2019 Sorry. Not playing with words. Stating facts. It is not an exposure parameter. Exposure controls the amount of light hitting the sensor. ISO does not. Misunderstanding this creates all kinds of problems, like struggling with auto-iSO, clipping highlights, embracing ETTR, etc. Did you even read the article I linked to? Another one of interest (albeit not Leica ) https://blog.kasson.com/the-bleeding-edge/testing-the-sony-a7-part-4/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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