Rumored 50mm APO Summilux-M

[evikne]

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I am quite curious about the rumored 50mm APO Summilux-M lens with closer focusing capabilities. It sounds tempting, but I will only consider it if the lens is noticeably shorter than the current model (I love it, but I just can't stand the length of it, which is why I have purchased it and sold it three times).

Do you think there is any hope that a new lens can be made any shorter, or will the closer focusing capabilities inevitably make it even longer?

I also hope for a circular iris diaphragm at all apertures!

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[albertknappmd]

It all depends on what the designer wants to emphasize. Simply put, there are a set of standard lens calculations and then there are modifications so as to improve, say near focusing...

All depends on what they intend to market lens for..

The key are the inevitable TRADE OFFs with resolution, contrast, size, weight etc....

Stay tuned...

Albert

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[Guest]

Isn't the current Summilux 50 ASPH already an APO (though "unofficially", without any mention in official documentation)? I'm new to all this and understand there's varying degrees of APO-correction, so I guess they just dialled it up for this thing so as to be able to charge what will undoubtedly be a fortune. Closer focusing sounds nice though. 

This whole APO designation has me curious about a few things: 

What about APO-correction contributes to sharpness? You don't see the Summicron 50-APO mentioned without "supreme sharpness" going alongside it- just curious what the correlation is between sharpness and APO. 

Also, how come some APO lenses (i.e. Cron 75 and 90) are so much cheaper than others (Cron 50)? 

I will follow this development intently. 

[wizard]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb White Buffalo:

Isn't the current Summilux 50 ASPH already an APO

Quite correct, as this is what Mr. Karbe, Leica's head of optical design, said. I am sure the current Summilux 50 design may by now be further improved, building on what Leica has learnt in designing the Summicron 50 APO Asph and the Noctilux, and if and when Leica decides it's time for an improvement, they will surely give the new Summilux the APO Asph designation. However, the current Summilux 50 is one of the best 50mm lenses to date, so the question is whether any improvement is really needed. It could be that the marketing guys are pushing for a new Summilux, with a view to be able to charge a price which I assume would then be set to fall between the Summicron 50 APO and the Noctilux.

I would be rather surprised if any new Summilux had closer focusing abilities, as any M camera's rangefinder will only couple to 0,7m minimum focusing distance, which is why most Leica M-lenses do not focus any closer than that. And I would be very surprised if any new and improved Summilux were smaller than the existing model (which I do not find to be large at all given its 1.4 maximum aperture).

Cheers, Andy

[Jeff S]

I prefer the length of the current 50 Summilux ASPH compared to the more compact 50 APO M Summicron, which lacks a fully knurled focus ring as a result, and places the aperture ring (which is often too loose) too close for my taste.  The control rings on the larger black chrome and LHSA 50 Summilux versions are even better IMO, but at a high cost and without a built-in hood.  Always trade offs,  for the designer and for the user. 

This old interview (2 pages) with Peter Karbe presents an excellent account of the many difficult challenges and design considerations associated with the current  Summilux ASPH...

https://www.shutterbug.com/content/leica-lens-saga-interview-peter-karbe

Jeff

[farnz]

5 hours ago, White Buffalo said:

What about APO-correction contributes to sharpness?

APO is short for apochromatic and what it does is correct the three visible wavelengths, red, green, and blue to focus much nearer the same point in the image when the lens is focussed.  Different wavelengths (colours) are diffracted by different degrees in the same medium (the lens) so an APO lens corrects the diffraction so that in the image the three colours meet at the same point.  

When the three colour don't meet at quite the same point then what starts as a point on the the object will result as a disc formed by one colour that is focused in the image and one or two of the other two colours focussed at points in front of or behind the focussed point in the image.  

A disc is not as 'sharp' as a point, which is why APO correction helps with what's commonly thought of as sharpness.

Pete.

[Michael Geschlecht]

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Hello Everybody,

True Apochromatic Correction, in most lenses, is only achieved in the center of the image.

By the time you get to the edges with most lenses, the correction is somewhat reduced.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited August 28, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

I just noticed a typographical error in my Post just above.

Where I wrote is: "By the time you get to the edges with most lenses, the correction is somewhat reduced." 

The sentence should have read:

"By the time that you get to the edges of most Apochromatically corrected lenses, the correction is somewhat reduced."

Best Regards,

Michael

[Exodies]

If RGB are focused at the same point, two of them will be filtered out by the Bayer filter.

[pedaes]

32 minutes ago, Exodies said:

If RGB are focused at the same point, two of them will be filtered out by the Bayer filter.

Probably why the APO-Summicron was launched with the first Monochrom (no Bayer filter involved).

[adan]

APO correction doesn't guarantee sharpness - it is perfectly possible to make an APO lens that is blurry.

But going to the effort and expense of achieving APO performance (special glass, usually) means the lensmaker generally also goes the extra mile in the rest of the design.

________________

Evikne - could go either way, as to size vs. close-focus limit. With a simple lens, close-focusing means moving the glass further from the camera, and that usually requires a longer focusing helix and more length (see most Macro lenses compared to non-macro counterparts). Even internal focusing usually requires the gross lens size to be longer - at any focused distance. The IF elements need space to move around in.

However, the 50 ASPH already has internal moving (floating) elements for better close-up performance (not range). Combining focusing with the floating-element movement might mean it won't grow (but I doubt it would shrink).

And Leica seems to be in "size-is-no-object" mode at the moment anyway (see 75 Noctilux!)

It'll also be interesting to see how the lens focuses closer when the base M camera limit is fixed at 0.7 meters - the camera cam runs out of movement, regardless of what the lens does. Scale-focusing a 50mm at f/1.4 and < 0.7m (as opposed to a Super-Wide Tri-Elmar) seems likely to be troublesome, unless this lens is aimed at the videographers and other EVF users.

Or goggles - à la 50mm DR or 90 macro.

[01af]

Am 28.8.2019 um 15:23 schrieb evikne:

... I will only consider it if the lens is noticeably shorter than the current model (I love it, but I just can't stand the length of it [...]). Do you think there is any hope that a new lens can be made any shorter, or will the closer focusing capabilities inevitably make it even longer?

I guess it's pretty unlikely that an Apo-Summilux-M 50 mm Asph will be shorter than the current model. Most likely, it will be approximately the same diameter and add a few millimeters (maybe two or three ... but hardly more than five) to the length — if it actually materialises in the first place.

But then, it's not totally impossible that I am wrong ... I'm just speculating.

[lct]

10 minutes ago, adan said:

It'll also be interesting to see how the lens focuses closer when the base M camera limit is fixed at 0.7 meters - the camera cam runs out of movement, regardless of what the lens does. Scale-focusing a 50mm at f/1.4 and < 0.7m (as opposed to a Super-Wide Tri-Elmar) seems likely to be troublesome, unless this lens is aimed at the videographers and other EVF users.

The Summilux 50/1.4 asph works fairly well with close focus adapters like Voigtlander V-ME (here at 0.5m) or Leica macro adapter. Scale focusing would be inaccurate given the thin DoF i guess but i never tried. 

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[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, adan said:

However, the 50 ASPH already has internal moving (floating) elements for better close-up performance (not range). Combining focusing with the floating-element movement might mean it won't grow (but I doubt it would shrink).

And Leica seems to be in "size-is-no-object" mode at the moment anyway (see 75 Noctilux!)

 

Indeed, one has to wonder if small size still merits the same intense efforts as some older Leica lens designs.  As Karbe described (in the interview linked above) the design of the current 50 Summilux ASPH, keeping the size constant while adding the floating element, yet still maintaining smooth focus action, presented ‘a nightmare’ in the production line and required several trials to optimize.  

Jeff

Edited September 2, 2019 by Jeff S

[evikne]

It would be interesting to see a survey where Leica M users answered what they value most: Compact size or cutting edge performance?

For me the choice is simple: Compactness is the most important factor in the M system, yet of course as good as possible within its limits. But leave the most groundbreaking performance to the L-mount system.

Edited September 2, 2019 by evikne

[farnz]

On 8/28/2019 at 2:23 PM, evikne said:

It sounds tempting, but I will only consider it if the lens is noticeably shorter than the current model (I love it, but I just can't stand the length of it, which is why I have purchased it and sold it three times).

The black chrome 'Retro' 50/1.4 Summilux asph 'seems' shorter than the standard version (although it's the same length) owing to the 43 mm filter thread and absence of a push-pull hood.  It has a wide, knurled focus ring and a signature vignette that is quite similar to the f/1 Noctilux although it retains the contrast and acutance of the standard version.  I much prefer it to the standard version that I had for 10+ years.

Pete.

[evikne]

1 hour ago, farnz said:

The black chrome 'Retro' 50/1.4 Summilux asph 'seems' shorter than the standard version (although it's the same length) owing to the 43 mm filter thread and absence of a push-pull hood.  It has a wide, knurled focus ring and a signature vignette that is quite similar to the f/1 Noctilux although it retains the contrast and acutance of the standard version.  I much prefer it to the standard version that I had for 10+ years.

Pete.

Thank you! I will consider this version if the size of the new APO Summilux becomes a disappointment (and if at all it becomes a reality). I don't worry about the performance. 😊 It has no hurry, because I am very pleased with the pre-ASPH version that I have today, and any new lens will come in addition to the other one, not instead of (I have finally learned not to sell a Leica lens).

It would be nice to see a side by side comparison of the regular ASPH and the Black Chrome version though. Anyone who knows about a good lens comparison website with images on the same scale? Only numbers can be misleading, because there are so many ways to measure. I often wonder about the size of other lenses as well.

Edited September 2, 2019 by evikne

[Jeff S]

7 hours ago, farnz said:

The black chrome 'Retro' 50/1.4 Summilux asph 'seems' shorter than the standard version (although it's the same length) owing to the 43 mm filter thread and absence of a push-pull hood.  It has a wide, knurled focus ring and a signature vignette that is quite similar to the f/1 Noctilux although it retains the contrast and acutance of the standard version.  I much prefer it to the standard version that I had for 10+ years.

Pete.

Pete, I have the standard 50 Summilux ASPH (love it), but still prefer the fully knurled focus ring and ergonomics of the black chrome edition (seemingly the same as the LHSA version).  The expense for that difference alone, though, stopped me from making the switch.  Plus the add-on hood seemed problematic based on some reports. But I was unaware of any differences in rendering or IQ.  Can you elaborate on any specific changes or improvements you’ve experienced?  And what’s your hood preference, if any?

Jeff

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[farnz]

On 9/3/2019 at 2:47 AM, Jeff S said:

Pete, I have the standard 50 Summilux ASPH (love it), but still prefer the fully knurled focus ring and ergonomics of the black chrome edition (seemingly the same as the LHSA version).  The expense for that difference alone, though, stopped me from making the switch.  Plus the add-on hood seemed problematic based on some reports. But I was unaware of any differences in rendering or IQ.  Can you elaborate on any specific changes or improvements you’ve experienced?  And what’s your hood preference, if any?

Jeff

Jeff,

My own and two other samples of the black chrome Summilux I've handled have buttery-smooth focussing whereas my standard Summilux's focus action was uneven and jerky from when I bought it new until I moved it on ten years later.  The pictures from my standard Summilux were wonderfully sharp and crisp with clear, saturated and it was my favourite lens for many years colours but my taste changed (matured?) over time to a preference for character over clinical.

Naturally it's all subjective but the pictures from my black chrome offer a little bit of character through it's gentle vignette owing to the 43 mm filter thread, which is just enough for me and places its pictures in my mind midway between the standard Summilux and the Noctilux f/1; a little bit of the Noctilux's inherent character gently veiling yet not hiding the Summilux's brilliance.

Pete.

@Jeff S

[farnz]

Jeff,

Oops, I forgot to mention the hood - I don't use one.  Along with the 28/2 Summicron asph v1 it's one of the most flare resistant lenses I've used.

Pete.