Seeking Long term user experiences with on the s007?

[alan.y]

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Maybe it's lack of clout. But to me it just seems Leica is too embarrassed to own up to such an elementary engineering mistake as an underspecified motor part--this on their highest-end system, no less. Aside from the increased frequency on the S 007's faster AF system, my impression from all the anecdotes reported here (including my own three failures) is that the AF failures are completely random. New lenses, old lenses, doesn't matter. MF sometimes still works post failure, sometimes doesn't. And I think more than once on this very forum, a user has written that he/she hasn't experienced the AF failure problem only to return shortly after to report that his or her own lenses have failed after said message.

If it is indeed almost completely random as it seems to me to be the case, there's nothing much really for Leica to say.

My S35 failed on first mounting. My S45, gently used for a year, failed just as I was shooting a brick wall for a buyer (great timing). My S100 gave in the middle of a rigorous session in live view. My S70, bought second hand in 2015, still hasn't failed.

I also think admitting the elementariness of the problem and thus the solution also tends to make Leica's ~$500/$600 charge per preemptive repair seem predatory, which I think it is.

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by alan.y

[xiaubauu2009]

7 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Do we really need the specific cause? Logic dictates that it is a wear and tear issue. The part is under specified for the torque or load on it, and it eventually breaks. It happens more quickly or frequently with the cameras that focus faster or have a higher load. There may be some other factors, but I do not think there is much you can do about it. Using MF might help, but still, every time you turn on the camera or mount the lens, it racks the lens through the AF procedure, so there is no avoiding it completely. I think it is fair to just wait and see what happens. Most of my lenses eventually failed, but I have still been using my 120mm since 2011 with no issues. I figure I will have to eat the cost at some point if it does fail, as I missed the warranty window, but for the meantime it has worked with rather frequent use for the last 8 years. 

I really don't believe it is wear and tear, there's no proof of it but  I think it is right after they introduce the faster AF of S007 and then subsequently the faster logic firmware to the S006... things start to go wrong with these motor spur. The spur wheel just cracked from the point where it join the motor shaft. I personally hold that spur wheel removed from my S24, minor crack, but enough to loosen on the motor wheel....

Why no transparent communication? speculation from my part is that if they admit that the new firmware crack you're AF spur wheel...... what do you think is going to happen?

All these are evil speculation, I am sure Leica is just as innocent and clueless as to the reason why the AF motor failed...

IT's not as if other brand fairs any better. My GFX 32-64 lens broke in 3 months. The AF module came loose in the lens. you can hear the motor floating around inside the lens... and the service at Fujifilm japan send it back to me without fixing it claiming that is performing nominally on my first attempt to get it repair.... I of course wrote a 'sternly worded letter' back to them together with the lens... and it came back 1 week later fixed but with no apologies...

Edited August 28, 2019 by xiaubauu2009

[Stuart Richardson]

I guess I thought they were pretty clear about it. At least in the communications I had, I remember that they indicated that the plastic AF gear had a tendency to break due to a manufacturing problem, and that when the AF speeds increased, it exacerbated the problem. It seems straightforward to me... I agree that it is not a nice situation to be in, but I do not see anything nefarious on Leica's part. The statement they issued was a bit more evasive than I remember them being when I contacted them in person about it, but that is likely due to the advice of their legal team. The biggest complaint I have, is that they will not give a free fix for the AF failure outside of the 5 year window. Most of my lenses failed around that time frame...I think it should have been 5 years from the release of the problematic firmware upgrade and the 007...

[alan.y]

Transparency on an ad hoc and informal basis and official evasiveness = not transparency. Precisely the problem.

And it's the same lack of accountability that gives us the 5-year limit, which is likewise enforced on an ad hoc and informal basis and is effectively a roundabout tax on users who buy second hand.

"Nefarious" or just "not a nice situation," whatever you want to call it, it's the same behavior.

Edited August 28, 2019 by alan.y

[alan.y]

3 hours ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

I really don't believe it is wear and tear, there's no proof of it but  I think it is right after they introduce the faster AF of S007 and then subsequently the faster logic firmware to the S006... things start to go wrong with these motor spur. The spur wheel just cracked from the point where it join the motor shaft. I personally hold that spur wheel removed from my S24, minor crack, but enough to loosen on the motor wheel....

Why no transparent communication? speculation from my part is that if they admit that the new firmware crack you're AF spur wheel...... what do you think is going to happen?

All these are evil speculation, I am sure Leica is just as innocent and clueless as to the reason why the AF motor failed...

IT's not as if other brand fairs any better. My GFX 32-64 lens broke in 3 months. The AF module came loose in the lens. you can hear the motor floating around inside the lens... and the service at Fujifilm japan send it back to me without fixing it claiming that is performing nominally on my first attempt to get it repair.... I of course wrote a 'sternly worded letter' back to them together with the lens... and it came back 1 week later fixed but with no apologies...

Well, you just explained the cause more clearly than Leica ever has officially. I remember your photo of the cracked spur wheel. It's not a mystery. In fact it's too embarrassingly elementary to admit.

Lenses have died on the S2 and S006 (my S35 died on my S2). The firmware is not the exclusive cause; but just made failure more likely.

I think there's an important difference between manufacturing tolerances (as seems the case with your GFX 32-64) and a fundamental design flaw like using an underspecified plastic spur wheel--and replacing it with the same part for years. Part of Leica's shtick here is pretending those are the same.

Edited August 28, 2019 by alan.y

[albertknappmd]

I have been using the S2, 006 and the 007 since 2010. 

I agree with everything that has been said so far. The advantage of the 007 lies in the improved ISO. You can get away with 1600-3200.. This is a significant improvement from the 006 where 400-800 was the limit.

I use my 007 for everything but was PREVIOUSLY hampered by the low ISO for both the S2 and 006. A trip to Japan with round the clock clouds and rain had me tethered to my tripod. Great photos but not my ideal style.. Now free of that with 007.

Albert

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[tom0511]

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I think the S-System is underrated today just because it is not as new and fancy as the mirrorless alternatives (which are great systems for sure).

I have used S and Hassy for some time now, and also tried Fuji. For my taste the S-System has still some strong things, specially the lenses, the OVF, and the speed and a beautiful feeling body/built. Reliability is so and so, but if I had a problem Leica fixed it.

In my experience AF of S007 locks a little faster than S006, accurancy is about the same ( I had some AF-accurancy problems specially with the 100mm).

 

 

[yudafu2]

I am quite surprised to find out that in terms of high-ISO performance, the S007 is better than the Fuji GFX 50s, especially at 3200 and 6400. This was unexpected. I also got the 110mm for Fuji, which is a stunning lens. The bokeh is wonderful and the focused area is extremely sharp. 

[alan.y]

2 hours ago, yudafu2 said:

I am quite surprised to find out that in terms of high-ISO performance, the S007 is better than the Fuji GFX 50s, especially at 3200 and 6400. This was unexpected. I also got the 110mm for Fuji, which is a stunning lens. The bokeh is wonderful and the focused area is extremely sharp. 

Do you mean a side by side comparison at the same ISO ratings? I had the same suspicion when I tested the GFX50S and R briefly but didn't think the difference was drastic. I read that Fuji rates its ISO ratings higher than some other manufacturers and wonder if that's true for the GFX50S/R. Also Kasson and others have noted that the GFX50S/R's microlens structure increases noise. https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-50s/on-microlens-size-in-the-gfx-100-and-gfx-50r-s/

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by alan.y

[yudafu2]

I did not do side-by-side comparison. This is just my impression in actual shooting and processing. The Fuji at 3200 is quite grainy and the DR is poor. At 6400, the image quality definitely suffers significantly. I wouldn't use 6400 on the Fuji.  I feel that the 6400 on S007 is usable. 

That being said, sensor of this generation is already good enough for majority of applications. Either camera is sufficient for almost all of my needs. 

[Darrell Jennings]

I'm a long time Hasselblad V system user and have a CFV50c back,  but it weighs a ton.  I had an X1D with three lenses that was stolen about 6 months ago and I have to admit I couldn't warm to the digital viewfinder, so I'm thinking of going to a Leica S.  My small format camera is an M10 which I like very much, but I miss medium format.  I've been waiting on the S3 to come out, but since it's late I'm considering a used S2.  The prices vary a lot based on the model of the camera with the 007 being four to five times the price of an S2-P in similar condition.  I mainly shoot outdoors with available light.  How big a difference is there in the various models of S2?  At $12-$14K for a 007 I would probably wait for a $20K S3.

[ropo54]

1 hour ago, Darrell Jennings said:

I'm a long time Hasselblad V system user and have a CFV50c back,  but it weighs a ton.  I had an X1D with three lenses that was stolen about 6 months ago and I have to admit I couldn't warm to the digital viewfinder, so I'm thinking of going to a Leica S.  My small format camera is an M10 which I like very much, but I miss medium format.  I've been waiting on the S3 to come out, but since it's late I'm considering a used S2.  The prices vary a lot based on the model of the camera with the 007 being four to five times the price of an S2-P in similar condition.  I mainly shoot outdoors with available light.  How big a difference is there in the various models of S2?  At $12-$14K for a 007 I would probably wait for a $20K S3.

Just my thoughts as a hobbyist. As between the S006 and S007, the S 007 has a far superior ISO range. In bright, sunny weather the S 006 will be fine, but anything less than that without a tripod and you might find yourself limited.  Probably best not to shoot it above iso 800.  With the 007, you'd likely be okay with iso 3200 and 6400 in a pinch.

The S007 also operates faster than the 006.  It will take 3.5 frames per second.  The S 006 is 1.5 frames per second.

I had also tried out a X1D and the shooting was much slower than the S 006 or 007. 

S006 probably gets the nod on colors compared to the S 007. X1D files were terrific too.

I think you can find used S007s now in the $7K USD range, and S 006s for about half of that price. But, there were issues with sensor corrosion on the S 006 so that is a concern on a pre-owned.

Rumor has it that the S3 will increase ISO range too and have a better autofocus system, but we will have to wait and see.  I suspect I will not upgrade to the S3 unless the trade in price for the S007 is stunningly strong.  All things considered, I much prefer the S 007 - because of its much better/ improved "agility"-  to the S 006 or the X1D.  Again, consider my opinions from the hobbyist's perspective and as someone who simply wants portability without a tripod.

[Sarnian]

Reading this it sounds like it might be a blessing that I can't afford Leica lenses! I therefore think that I'll stick with my Hasselblad HCD 28mm, my Pentax 645 lenses (A 35mm, A 75mm and FA 33-55mm) and my gorgeous little 24mm Samyang. 👍

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, ropo54 said:

Just my thoughts as a hobbyist. As between the S006 and S007, the S 007 has a far superior ISO range. In bright, sunny weather the S 006 will be fine, but anything less than that without a tripod and you might find yourself limited.  Probably best not to shoot it above iso 800.  With the 007, you'd likely be okay with iso 3200 and 6400 in a pinch.

The S007 also operates faster than the 006.  It will take 3.5 frames per second.  The S 006 is 1.5 frames per second.

I had also tried out a X1D and the shooting was much slower than the S 006 or 007. 

S006 probably gets the nod on colors compared to the S 007. X1D files were terrific too.

I think you can find used S007s now in the $7K USD range, and S 006s for about half of that price. But, there were issues with sensor corrosion on the S 006 so that is a concern on a pre-owned.

Rumor has it that the S3 will increase ISO range too and have a better autofocus system, but we will have to wait and see.  I suspect I will not upgrade to the S3 unless the trade in price for the S007 is stunningly strong.  All things considered, I much prefer the S 007 - because of its much better/ improved "agility"-  to the S 006 or the X1D.  Again, consider my opinions from the hobbyist's perspective and as someone who simply wants portability without a tripod.

Anything besides the "slowness" you mention regarding the X1D compared to the 007 that gave you pause?   As far as handheld portability, seems the X1D has the advantage given camera/lens size, weight and leaf shutter (lack of mirror slap or shutter vibration).  Unfortunately, neither system provides IBIS or OIS.

Jeff

[Darrell Jennings]

16 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Anything besides the "slowness" you mention regarding the X1D compared to the 007 that gave you pause?   As far as handheld portability, seems the X1D has the advantage given camera/lens size, weight and leaf shutter (lack of mirror slap or shutter vibration).  Unfortunately, neither system provides IBIS or OIS.

Jeff

HI Jeff, I had an X1D with three lenses and while the photos were good, the viewfinder was useless.  There was absolutely no way to tell if anything was in focus.  The autofocus while slow did work, so the images turned out fine, but the experience of photographing was not enjoyable.  I've decided I'm not interested in any mirrorless cameras.  The weight and size advantage are just not worth being disconnected from the subject for me. 

[Jeff S]

9 minutes ago, Darrell Jennings said:

HI Jeff, I had an X1D with three lenses and while the photos were good, the viewfinder was useless.  There was absolutely no way to tell if anything was in focus.  The autofocus while slow did work, so the images turned out fine, but the experience of photographing was not enjoyable.  I've decided I'm not interested in any mirrorless cameras.  The weight and size advantage are just not worth being disconnected from the subject for me. 

The big and gorgeous S OVF is indeed a core feature.  I, too, am not an EVF fan, but I do recognize its various advantages, which can include focus aids (magnification, peaking, lack of need for lens/sensor calibration, etc).  Mirrorless systems aren’t necessarily smaller (especially when including lenses), but the X1D is small compared to some other MF alternatives.  Pros and cons. 

But I don’t want to go far OT here, given the OP’s S007 user experience request. I was, however, interested in Ropo’s S007 comparison.

Jeff

 

[ropo54]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Anything besides the "slowness" you mention regarding the X1D compared to the 007 that gave you pause?   As far as handheld portability, seems the X1D has the advantage given camera/lens size, weight and leaf shutter (lack of mirror slap or shutter vibration).  Unfortunately, neither system provides IBIS or OIS.

Jeff

Jeff,

There is a "clackety-clack" x 3 when pressing the shutter button, which I could never get used to.  It was definitely slower in shooting with compared to either the 006 or 007, so it seemed. The S 007 is ready to 'go again' as soon as the shutter was pressed.

The X1D files are terrific. A different look than the S 007, but I loved them all the same. I thought the files were very malleable in post processing. 

The touch screen was buggy.  Sometimes non-responsive, requiring another touch, but that may all be worked out now.  The viewfinder was nothing special. 

Portability of the X1D was a pleasure. Also, I would add, it was nice to be able to use some M lenses with adapter. 

I will definitely look at the X1D II,  but if the choice is between the X1D, S006, and S007, the S007 was my definitive preference (price considerations aside).

Rob

[alan.y]

2 hours ago, Darrell Jennings said:

HI Jeff, I had an X1D with three lenses and while the photos were good, the viewfinder was useless.  There was absolutely no way to tell if anything was in focus.  The autofocus while slow did work, so the images turned out fine, but the experience of photographing was not enjoyable.  I've decided I'm not interested in any mirrorless cameras.  The weight and size advantage are just not worth being disconnected from the subject for me. 

Darrell, I agree with you about the X1D but the X1Dii improves on both the speed and the EVF quality. I still prefer an OVF, but like many others I'm increasingly intolerant of bulk and weight.

Like Rob (ropo) said, the S 007 can be bought used for much less than $12k. If you look at (very few) completed eBay auctions, the real selling price is about $5000. Dealers list them for $7-$8k. 

The S is less fussy and probably more ergonomic than the Hasselblad V plus a digital back, but I'm not really sure that it's significantly lighter--or really at all, depending on your lens choices.

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by alan.y

[Jeff S]

16 minutes ago, ropo54 said:

There is a "clackety-clack" x 3 when pressing the shutter button, which I could never get used to.  It was definitely slower in shooting with compared to either the 006 or 007, so it seemed. The S 007 is ready to 'go again' as soon as the shutter was pressed.

 

Thanks for the follow up, Rob.  Yes, I’m aware of the X1D operation, and have tested it as well as the S006.  Some misunderstand the exposure clicks, thinking there is shutter lag, which in fact is minimal, although there is some blackout between shots as you note. The following brief video explains....

I’ll be testing the X1Dii for overall improvements (along with the SL2, and maybe S007 if prices drop further).  Hands down, I prefer the S OVF, but there are clear system trade offs.

Thanks again.

Jeff

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[Stuart Richardson]

That is a helpful video, but if you have to produce a video to explain the apparent sluggishness in your camera, something is wrong. I understand that for many it is a non issue. I am not an action photographer at all, but in my early test of a friend's X1D, I found this lag very annoying. I understand that they have improved it, and it is nice to hear that the actual lag is minimal, but the blackout is quite substantial. For me, this blackout is also a quite fundamental barrier to the way I like to photograph. It actually made me really appreciate how my main cameras are excellent about this...the S is ok, but the real appreciation comes with the Mamiya 7II, Leica M cameras and view cameras. Being able to have zero blackout gives me more confidence and engagement with whom or what I am photographing...I actually see the moment of capture vs it being the only moment I DON'T see. The S is fast enough for me that it is not usually an issue, but I did find it taxing to deal with the X1D...it is similarly frustrating on the M10 with EVF, but that obviously gives you the option of OVF. Standing behind a view camera and looking at someone directly as you trigger the cable release is a more direct and pleasing way to take a photo than staring into a dark tunnel for a few beats after you press the shutter.