marknorton Posted July 29, 2007 Share #1 Posted July 29, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) The new firmware release is welcome and refines further the camera we've bought but I do wonder if Leica are missing a trick here. A bit of brain-storming this afternoon sitting in the garden with a bottle of Cloudy Bay got me wondering about the posssibility of Leica making available an API for the software developers amongst us (Carsten, Carl, Scott, Sandy, myself, amongst others) to work with new functionality which Leica doesn't have the time or resources to pursue. RAW 16 bit files? Lens Menus? Shutter Speed in the viewfinder? User Defined folder and file names? Different menu structures and navigation? Just some of the things being suggested at the moment which may never see the light of day unless sponsored by someone with the will to do it independently. By way of example, I listen to music through something called a Squeezebox (a network music player) whose functionality is developed by the Open Source community. There's an API which the manufacturer makes available and how your player runs depends on which plug-ins you choose to use. It's never been done, to my knowledge, by a camera manufacturer but to have the M8 functionality developed and refined beyond the standard Leica offering by the user community would be very interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 29, 2007 Posted July 29, 2007 Hi marknorton, Take a look here Leica M8 Open Source?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stunsworth Posted July 29, 2007 Share #2 Posted July 29, 2007 It will never happen. How can Leica provide a warranty on something they are not responsible for? What if the open source firmware causes the camera to crash catastrophically, who would pick up the repair bill, the person who wrote the new firmware? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 29, 2007 Share #3 Posted July 29, 2007 I would personally love this! Leica is somewhat secretive though, and has a noticeable not-invented-here syndrome, so I don't consider it likely. I would love to collaborate with others about developing software for the M8. I am still in the thinking-about-how-to-do-it phase of my planned DNG-reading, HDR combining, TIFF-writing program Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 29, 2007 Share #4 Posted July 29, 2007 Steve, on the topic of firmware, open-sourcing it with whatever license would allow developers to give feedback and bug fixes to Leica. That could be doable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted July 29, 2007 Share #5 Posted July 29, 2007 Months and months ago, when I was a just arrived here, and did not yet have an M8, I wrote something about this... I am in the industrial Software business and am by definition intrigued with such a possibility... the question of warranty can be solved with practices that are standard in the industry (Leica Co. gurantees full warranty only on bodies that reach the factory with stndard factory software etc... there are normal policies on this); and techies/Leicaphiles would have a lot of fun and a lot to share... a proper community shall born... do not see real risks for Leica, and this would be something new in the Digital Photo Business... good for Leica: they invented the RF system camera ? Now they can invent the Open Source Digital RF Camera... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willemvelthoven Posted July 29, 2007 Share #6 Posted July 29, 2007 ... do not see real risks for Leica, and this would be something new in the Digital Photo Business... good for Leica: they invented the RF system camera ? Now they can invent the Open Source Digital RF Camera... agree. this certainly would expand the market for leica and grow a community of new users. Leica should consider this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 29, 2007 Share #7 Posted July 29, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I wouldn't let any open source firmware near a camera of mine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreas_thomsen Posted July 29, 2007 Share #8 Posted July 29, 2007 wow wow wow wow wow wow this great idea could radically change the business of the camera industrie. it could be the end of traditional thinking about the digital age. the beginning of something new. this would be a real creative business idea. changing the world of digital photogrphie. we are living in radical changing times. times of great promise. Leica just do it. (isn't Leica famous for thinking beyond the traditonal borders???) (p.s.: sorry for my bad english-at least i am german) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highlander Posted July 29, 2007 Share #9 Posted July 29, 2007 This is an idea that is full of potential. Look at the lens situation, for ages there have been dozens of options for those who cannot or choose not to buy "Leica", but will eventually. There are more than enough professional photographers out there who will experiment. Or I hope there are. The spin off for us mortals is a better understanding of our chosen camera system and an enjoyment of photography made possible by this wonderful tool. (Sorry MP owners) Regards to all ... now get over it and get on with it. Would next week be too soon to expect results ... Jim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted July 29, 2007 Share #10 Posted July 29, 2007 I know that we all have different perspectives from which we approach things but I do wonder whether I am in a minority here? For me, the M8 is simply a camera - something to take pictures with. My interest in it ends there. I am no more interested in an open source community being developed around the M8 than I am in an open source community working on firmware for my microwave oven. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 29, 2007 Share #11 Posted July 29, 2007 Ian, doesn't it depend on what this community produces? I consider the likelihood of a reverse-engineered firmware to be near nil, but useful software for M8 photographers would be great. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 29, 2007 Author Share #12 Posted July 29, 2007 Ian, for those with no interest, there would of course be the standard Leica functionality to fall back on. I doubt though there's a single software engineer here who wouldn't be intrigued by the opportunity to work with the raw sensor data - which is much "rawer" than what you get in a .DNG - to see what they could come up with, Truth is, it's unlikely that the standard Leica firmware achieves the best image quality achieveable from the hardware. If, say, Carsten offered an option with improved image rendering for $100 or Carl offered a configurable user menu, who is going to resist the temptation to buy? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
topoxforddoc Posted July 29, 2007 Share #13 Posted July 29, 2007 Guys, If Leica were to make the the M8 open source code, how about asking about the DMR too, or even the Digilux 3 or D-Lux series. With the latter two, one might even be able to upgrade Panas. Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbretteville Posted July 29, 2007 Share #14 Posted July 29, 2007 Mark, Love to join such a team. - Carl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
4season Posted July 29, 2007 Share #15 Posted July 29, 2007 I like open source software, but I think sometimes developers have a real problem saying "No" to adding more features, more complexity and in general, more bloat. I don't really want to worry whether some 3rd party plugin will clash with a new firmware update and cause my camera to hang. Right now, the M8 starts up in something like 0.5 seconds, and I don't want anyone slowing that down! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted July 29, 2007 Share #16 Posted July 29, 2007 I'm quite certain Leica understand that the very first undertaking should they allow anyone outside their employ to have at the firmware, would be a lens menu. And they have made it clear they feel that would not be in "our" best interest I recall some time ago there was a Russian fellow who hacked the firmware for one of Canon's entry-level DSLR bodies and unlocked numerous features available on a higher-cost body. I expect given the number of expert computer geeks who own an M8 that sooner or later someone will attempt (and most likely succeed) at hacking the M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 30, 2007 Share #17 Posted July 30, 2007 Most of the M8 internals are parts directly ordered from catalogues so you can request the hardware spec. and necessary programming tools from the vendors already ... it's not like the Canon and Nikon hardware which are all proprietary made and they won't allow you access to the hardware spec. at all. One really has the expertise should be able to write a whole set of firmware from ground up, much less effort than hacking into the existing Leica code. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 30, 2007 Author Share #18 Posted July 30, 2007 Of course, silly me for thinking it was more than a walk in the park. You've obviously never done it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 30, 2007 Share #19 Posted July 30, 2007 I wouldn't let any open source firmware near a camera of mine. But Andy, you never disassembled your M8, either. I'm not as sanguine as some--a lot of us could resist the temptation to make our M8's as menu-deep as some other cameras. But the idea certainly has merit. If they made the camera open-source, Leica would make history just as they did when they built Barnack's camera, and again when they introduced the M3. The fact is that they've turned a corner: The camera that has a computer in it _is_ a computer. Besides the points mentioned already, consider letting a few dozen programmers loose on AWB. Great idea, Mark! E Puts and I will get out our 41C's and join you for a go at it! --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted July 30, 2007 Share #20 Posted July 30, 2007 I have suggested this before and would love to join in. I would also encourage some of my optics engineers to contribute (they develop military grade optics for laser targeting, IR digital imaging and night vision among other things) and are quite knowledgeable on digital imaging. I too think that Leica is missing the boat by not taking advantage of the talent available here which would greatly expand their capability at minimal cost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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