50mm Noctilux 1.0 or APO 50mm summicron ?

[phototrope]

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I'm torn between buying a 50mm Noctulux 1.0 in excellent condition, or an APO 50mm summicron brand new. I have the funds for only one of them right now. 

I start this thread with some trepidation because I know it's a very subjective question, but would be interested to hear other people's informed views to help me decide.  Which would you choose?

My application will be mainly portraits but also general photography (street, landscapes) on film and digital.

By the way. I have ruled out a 50/0.95 or the 50/1.4 asph, as they do not have the kind of rendering I'm looking for. 

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[evikne]

I think it's a strange question, because these two lenses are about as different as possible! Do you prefer a modern, realistic look, or a dreamy, artistic look?

Only you can decide.

[Phil_P]

this previous thread may give you some useful pointers

I have the f1 myself and whilst I like the results (and much enjoy admiring others results and skill in using it) I know it is not going to be in my bag the vast majority of the time due to it's size so am selling it.  I did consider the APO as there has been one sitting on a local auction site but (purely IMHO) for people shots, whist the out of focus rendering is sublime, I am not sold myself on the  clinical detail. For landscape and 'things' am sure it is amazing.  So am sticking to a Summilux ASPH and a Summicron Rigid as my 50mm lenses having considered your very dilemma over two such extremely different lenses.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Phil_P

[spydrxx]

I'd go for any Summicron (I've owned all but the APO over the last 50 years) over the Noctilux (which I've also owned). The Nocti is just too large, heavy, and special use lens for my taste. The Summicrons, IMHO, are a much better choice. If you are a professional photographer, and could afford both, I'd say give the Nocti a try. Most buyers I've known over the years had a short term love affair with it, and when the novelty wore off, sold it.

[a.noctilux]

Phototrope,

Some ideas then ...

flip a coin 😉

- plenty of Leica users may want to try Noctilux one day

in last 15 years, I've lent my Noct. 1.0 to many for them to use at will with their Leica M ...

net results were not consistent, but some saved thousands of euros not to buy Noctilux and other bought 0.95 in place of 1.0

- and other bought 50mm Apo-Summicron-M as lighter and so unique rendering that Noctilux 1.0 would never give

- some even stay happy with the 50mm Summilux-M asph.or not, the lens they already have

 

Myself as old timer Noctilux user, since last year, I went the opposite with Summarit-M 2.5/50mm that is as good as I expected from 50mm.

As side note, I've used and still own dozens of 50mm lenses for Leica M or LTM

😍 I love discovering lenses

Edited June 11, 2019 by a.noctilux

[dkmoore]

1 hour ago, phototrope said:

I'm torn between buying a 50mm Noctulux 1.0 in excellent condition, or an APO 50mm summicron brand new. I have the funds for only one of them right now. 

I start this thread with some trepidation because I know it's a very subjective question, but would be interested to hear other people's informed views to help me decide.  Which would you choose?

My application will be mainly portraits but also general photography (street, landscapes) on film and digital.

By the way. I have ruled out a 50/0.95 or the 50/1.4 asph, as they do not have the kind of rendering I'm looking for. 

The 50 Summilux 1.4 is actually the best of both worlds in my view for someone that can't decide. At f2 you are going to be close to the APO. At 1.4 you are going to be close to the F1 Noctilux.

Otherwise, you need to figure out what you are looking for as evikne points out in post 2.

I have the 50 APO and the 50 Lux and don't prefer one over the other but I do prefer both over the Noctilux.

Edited June 11, 2019 by dkmoore

[ELAN]

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I have the 3 lenses and I'd keep the Summilux if I had to choose only one. These days I use the APO the most, then the lux and the f/1.  Love all three but the f/1 is too big and heavy for my everyday use.

[phototrope]

12 minutes ago, ELAN said:

I have the 3 lenses and I'd keep the Summilux if I had to choose only one. These days I use the APO the most, then the lux and the f/1.  Love all three but the f/1 is too big and heavy for my everyday use.

@ELAN Out of interest, why do you use the APO more than the lux? Aren't they roughly the same size?

[steamboat]

I own a 50mm Summicron and an f1.0 Noctilux. Given a choice I'd trade both of 'em for a 50mm Summilux f1.4. I realize that's the worst answer you could have gotten. Good luck with your purchase and more importantly best of luck with your photography. 🙂 

[evikne]

I guess that when @dkmoore, @ELAN and @steamboat mention 50mm Summilux, they mean the pre-ASPH? It's a bit important to make a clear distinction to the ASPH version.

[steamboat]

22 minutes ago, evikne said:

I guess that when @dkmoore, @ELAN and @steamboat mention 50mm Summilux, they mean the pre-ASPH? It's a bit important to make a clear distinction to the ASPH version.

Well if i had the resources I wouldn't have a problem with the ASPH 50mm Summilux but, yes, the 1992-2004 (11-868) would be wonderful and what I'd actually purchase. The BIG distinction between it and the earlier models is they (finally) got the minimum focus down to .7meter (from 1-meter).

Edited June 11, 2019 by steamboat
overly wordy

[ELAN]

58 minutes ago, phototrope said:

@ELAN Out of interest, why do you use the APO more than the lux? Aren't they roughly the same size?

The lux and the APO draw differently. I prefer the rendering of the lux - something about the lux photos always appeals to me.  The APO I've had for only a year so I am still experimenting with it and using it more.  My APO is the LHSA design with the knurled focus ring that I really like in my hands (liked it so much that I traded my standard chrome lux for the BC E43 lux).

@evikne I am referring to the latest ASPH version.

Edited June 11, 2019 by ELAN

[farnz]

5 hours ago, phototrope said:

By the way. I have ruled out a 50/0.95 or the 50/1.4 asph, as they do not have the kind of rendering I'm looking for. 

I think you've answered your own question there.  The 50/2 APO-Summicron asph has a well-corrected, more clinical, similar rendering to those two lenses, which is a world of difference away from the rendering of the f/1.0 Noctilux.

Pete.

[Del-Uks]

I might have tried every M-mount 50mm I could... wanted to like the APO Sumicron, but I wasn't very excited by its rendering... incredibly sharp, but it lacks the "poetry" of the other Leica 50mm lenses I've tried.

Eventually, I kept three 50mm lenses in my arsenal :

• Leica Summicron-M 50mm f/2 IV (“Tiger Claw” - Canada) : believe it or not I would never trade this lightweight marvel for an APO (except for speculation and profit) !

• Leica Summilux-M 50mm f/1.4 III : Mandler's delight in the pocket... its only default is heavy distortion, so I wouldn't recommend it for architecture photography

• Leica Noctilux 50mm f/1.0 II : taking picture with it wide open is like painting the light with a magic brush !

That said, everything is about taste and we are all different with different needs...

[jcraf]

14 hours ago, farnz said:

I think you've answered your own question there.  The 50/2 APO-Summicron asph has a well-corrected, more clinical, similar rendering to those two lenses, which is a world of difference away from the rendering of the f/1.0 Noctilux.

Pete.

Pete's correct. In fact I'd choose the 50 Summilux Asph anyway over the 50 Apo.  I've owned both, but the only one I still have is the 50 Summilux Asph.  In my view, it does 95% of what the Apo does optically, but is a stop faster and half the price.

I also have the 50 f1, which as Pete says is a world away from the other 2 mentioned, and draws in a very special way.  It's almost a lifetime's work to get to master it, and nail focus wide open. Pete's pretty handy with his, as is Erl (one of our moderators, a true Noctilux Meister).

[phototrope]

Thanks to everyone for your replies. They'e all been very helpful and I feel like I've learnt a lot. 

So I've ALMOST decided to go ahead and buy the Noctilux 50/1.0 being offered to me, thanks to all your input. Also, I think a V1 (E58) version in EXC condition is going to be harder and harder to find. Whereas I can hopefully pick up a new APO 50 (or maybe a new 50/2.4, who knows) any time.  

As an ex-wedding photographer, I've hung up my Nikons for good and am having some vague notions of doing something with travel photography - travelling light with Leicas only.  So I'm not a stranger to travelling with heavy photography gear. But I'm wondering if the 50/1.0 is too heavy to be considered "travelling light".  This is another question, and I guess the only way to find out is by getting one and trying it out?

Edited June 12, 2019 by phototrope

[a.noctilux]

Noctilux 1.0 is not light, but with some practice and on which M body it's on, the balance can be good or not so good.

In my use, M5 is the best friend of Noctilux 1.0 ( I have the E58 ) for the nicest balance of the combo.

I've used the other f/1.0 Canon EOS which is about double the weight of Noctilux :

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[farnz]

40 minutes ago, phototrope said:

But I'm wondering if the 50/1.0 is too heavy to be considered "travelling light". 

If it helps, I travel 'fairly light' and my Noctilux always accompanies me no matter the destination.

Checklist: Noctilux?: Check.  Toothbrush?: Check.  Clean underwear?: Check.  ... other stuff. 😄

Pete.

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Hallo,

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[evikne]

If you want to travel light, you might take a look at the 50mm Summilux pre-ASPH as well, especially the last (E46) version, with 0.7m near limit. It's like having a mini version of the Summilux 75 and Noctilux f/1 combined in one very light and tiny lens. It has much of the same characteristics, of course except from their extra speed and reach.

But when you want the extra f-stop and the most extreme bokeh, there is no substitutes for the Noctilux! 

[phototrope]

30 minutes ago, evikne said:

If you want to travel light, you might take a look at the 50mm Summilux pre-ASPH as well, especially the last (E46) version, with 0.7m near limit. It's like having a mini version of the Summilux 75 and Noctilux f/1 combined in one very light and tiny lens. It has much of the same characteristics, of course except from their extra speed and reach.

But when you want the extra f-stop and the most extreme bokeh, there is no substitutes for the Noctilux! 

Thank you @evikne, you're giving me lots to think about. (By the way, loved the pictures on your website).

Actually, I've been looking closely at pictures taken with 50mm Leica lenses on flickr recently. Interestingly, the images that appeal to me most are taken with the 5cm summitar - and that's even from the commercial viewpoint of selling images. Is that blasphemy? I mean, what happened to Leica 50mm lenses over the years?