Bob Andersson Posted June 4, 2019 Share #41  Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 17 hours ago, BernardC said: Here's what I don't understand. The latest Sony sensors are "BSI." The latest Panasonic sensors aren't. They use other technologies to increase the fill factor, as has been the case for every sensor generation since the dawn of digital photography. Tests show that either approach delivers results that are barely distinguishable in terms of noise performance, with Panasonic's non-BSI approach being slightly better at this time (Summer 2019), probably because their sensors are slightly newer. People seem to be curiously enamoured of BSI sensors, while dismissing competing technology that achieves the exact same end-result. Is there something that I am missing? Why is BSI such a huge deal, when other technologies that achieve the same thing aren't? If it were all about dynamic range and noise performance maybe BSI wouldn't be such a huge deal. Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that BSI sensors are no better in those terms than their non-BSI equivalents BSI is a huge enabling technology. Check out this article about Stacked CMOS Image Sensor Technology. The following video about the now ageing A9 might also help. Is it appropriate for the SL2? Only Leica knows. đ  Edited June 4, 2019 by Bob Andersson typo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 4, 2019 Posted June 4, 2019 Hi Bob Andersson, Take a look here SL2?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
paulb33 Posted June 4, 2019 Share #42  Posted June 4, 2019 Spoke to a UK Leica Store.....who says SL2 "Won't be in the summer....but will likely be before the end of the year". Take it with a pinch of salt though.. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted June 4, 2019 Share #43  Posted June 4, 2019 6 hours ago, Bob Andersson said: If it were all about dynamic range and noise performance maybe BSI wouldn't be such a huge deal. Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that BSI sensors are no better in those terms than their non-BSI equivalents BSI is a huge enabling technology. Check out this article about Stacked CMOS Image Sensor Technology. The following video about the now ageing A9 might also help. Is it appropriate for the SL2? Only Leica knows. đ Both of those resources are from Sony PR, explaining why Sony's sensors are the the best (as they should). The other sensor fabricators also have PR explaining why their own sensors are the best. There's nothing wrong with Sony's technology, but it doesn't seem to provide huge advantages to photographers. The A9's sensor had slightly better specifications than the older SL sensor (a few more FPS, maybe a stop higher ISO), but it's slightly behind the newer S1's sensor. I can't think of many reasons why a photographer would care who made their sensor. It's like buying a car based on who manufactured the window glass. They are all very good, and no supplier has a consistent advantage over time. Mind you, the differences between sensors are probably more relevant for specialized applications, like astro-photography, or extreme low-light imaging. Those markets are marginal enough that they may not be catered-to by all suppliers. Coincidentally, today's rumours mention a new Canon astro camera, so it may be that Canon will soon be the sensor of choice for both of the applications that I mentioned. I'm sure that there are other specialized fields that are sensor-critical, and in which they do not excel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Andersson Posted June 4, 2019 Share #44  Posted June 4, 2019 Off-topic but I started shooting astro using a Canon 5D2. Then I moved on to a (front-illuminated, by the way đ€Ł) Kodak KAF-16803 sensor, the best I could afford at the time, cooled to -40C. About a month's work in this shot which I was lucky enough to have published a few years back. Looking at the quantum efficiency of both front-illuminated and back-illuminated astro sensors on, for example, the FLI website might be, er, illuminating. (Sorry, I won't do that again! đ). At the end of the day if BSI wasn't offering something useful Sony wouldn't pursue it as any cameras that employed it would be at a cost disadvantage. So far as the SL2 is concerned, I'm not into video at all so as long as it offers class leading dynamic range and decent high ISO performance for stills then I don't really care how it's done. đ 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted June 4, 2019 Share #45  Posted June 4, 2019 vor 3 Stunden schrieb BernardC: I can't think of many reasons why a photographer would care who made their sensor. It's like buying a car based on who manufactured the window glass. They are all very good, and no supplier has a consistent advantage over time. With the L mount alliance, Leica then can only hope that those valuing the SL2âs ergonomics, user interface, and support for R and M lenses will be willing to fork over 5K more than for the S1R, assuming the SL2 comes with the same great IBIS. And if the sensor doesnât matter, why the heck develop a proprietary one for S3? Leica even gave it a name, ProFormat. đOr is it that they just wanted a 3:2 aspect ratio and no off-the-shelf MF sensor offered this? BTW, I think the sensor is more like the battery of an EV. Those Tesla owners donât  think that they are actually driving a Panasonic. đ  Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satijntje Posted June 4, 2019 Share #46  Posted June 4, 2019 vor 7 Stunden schrieb paulb33: Spoke to a UK Leica Store.....who says SL2 "Won't be in the summer....but will likely be before the end of the year". Take it with a pinch of salt though.. Paul I can confirm. September the earliest Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bags27 Posted June 4, 2019 Share #47 Â Posted June 4, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) 54 minutes ago, satijntje said: I can confirm. September the earliest Announced or shipped? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaW Posted June 4, 2019 Share #48 Â Posted June 4, 2019 Announced July, available September following my dealer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillbeers15 Posted June 5, 2019 Share #49  Posted June 5, 2019 11 hours ago, Chaemono said: With the L mount alliance, Leica then can only hope that those valuing the SL2âs ergonomics, user interface, and support for R and M lenses will be willing to fork over 5K more than for the S1R, assuming the SL2 comes with the same great IBIS. And if the sensor doesnât matter, why the heck develop a proprietary one for S3? Leica even gave it a name, ProFormat. đOr is it that they just wanted a 3:2 aspect ratio and no off-the-shelf MF sensor offered this? BTW, I think the sensor is more like the battery of an EV. Those Tesla owners donât  think that they are actually driving a Panasonic. đ  I am ready to pay for an SL2 so long that itâs spec and performance is no less than an S1R. Letâs hope Leica will at least benchmark an S1R before releasing the SL2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Andersson Posted June 5, 2019 Share #50  Posted June 5, 2019 Photons to Photos has some preliminary data up for the GFX 100. I think this is relevant for the SL2 discussion because of the comparison with the older generation sensor in the GFX 50S. Here is the dynamic range comparison between the Leica SL, Lumix S1R, GFX 100 and GFX 50S - link. The usual caveat about the x-axis being ISO Setting rather than Measured ISO applies. If the preliminary data for the GFX 100 holds up then it is noteworthy that the DR is better than that of the GFX 50S despite the pixel density doubling. It also seems to be about a stop better than the S1R which has a pixel count that may, or may not, be relevant to the forthcoming SL2. On the face of it the GFX 100 isn't a competitor for the SL line but factor in the cost and weight of a selection of lenses to go in the bag and for some uses things aren't so clear cut. So "Chapeau" to Fuji and, to continue the millinery theme, it's time for Leica to throw its hat in the ring. đ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted June 5, 2019 Share #51 Â Posted June 5, 2019 19 hours ago, Chaemono said: And if the sensor doesnât matter, why the heck develop a proprietary one for S3? I didn't say it doesn't matter, I said that modern sensors have similar performance. I am purely speculating, but it seems like the S3 sensor has similar pixel density and performance to the sensors used in the TL2 and CL. That could be a coincidence, or it could be that they went with a familiar supplier and technology. In other words, yes, it's a proprietary sensor, but it's probably based on existing tech. Just like the 5 or 6 versions of Sony's 50MP MF sensor are proprietary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted June 6, 2019 Share #52  Posted June 6, 2019 Am 5.6.2019 um 15:40 schrieb BernardC: I didn't say it doesn't matter, I said that modern sensors have similar performance. I am purely speculating, but it seems like the S3 sensor has similar pixel density and performance to the sensors used in the TL2 and CL. Similar performance to the CL sensor scaled to FF would be nice. Malleability of files and DR/noise at ISO 3200 are really impressive for an APS-C sensor IMO (SL captures cleaner Highlights with the same lens, just so no none gets the wrong impression). But the CL pixel density is higher than the S3 one. A quick calculation I did yesterday would have meant 17 MPx for the CL had the pixel density been the same. I didnât double check the math. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 6, 2019 Share #53  Posted June 6, 2019 54 minutes ago, Chaemono said: Similar performance to the CL sensor scaled to FF would be nice. Malleability of files and DR/noise at ISO 3200 are really impressive for an APS-C sensor IMO (SL captures cleaner Highlights with the same lens, just so no none gets the wrong impression). But the CL pixel density is higher than the S3 one. A quick calculation I did yesterday would have meant 17 MPx for the CL had the pixel density been the same. I didnât double check the math. Letâs see: S3 - 64MP 45x30 format = 47,400 pixels/sqmm CL/TL2 - 24MP 23.6x15.7 format = 64,770 pixels/sqmm Q2 - 47.3MP 36x24 format = 54,745 pixels/sqmm SL - 24MP 36x24 format = 27,700 pixels/sqmm I appreciate these calculations are not entirely accurate, but hey do give a rough indication that this comparison is rather pointless.  I guess it does show that as format size increases, pixel density reduces.  Will the SL2 have the density of the Q2?  I suspect having interchangeable lenses might impact on that . I agree that Leica will use the same tech to maximise investment, but at the same time they do refine their sensors for each camera (apparently). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted June 6, 2019 Share #54 Â Posted June 6, 2019 Â 2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said: S3 - 64MP 45x30 format = 47,400 pixels/sqmm CL/TL2 - 24MP 23.6x15.7 format = 64,770 pixels/sqmm Q2 - 47.3MP 36x24 format = 54,745 pixels/sqmm SL - 24MP 36x24 format = 27,700 pixels/sqmm You are correct. A CL-type sensor scaled to S3 size would give 87MP. Going the other way, if the next SL uses a scaled-down S3 sensor, it would provide 41MP. That would be enough resolution for 8K video... I'm sure that Leica has considered all the options, and that the S3 and SL(2) sensors are already in production. Truth is, I'm more enticed by the enhanced colour response that's been promised with the S3 than I am by more pixels. Exciting times. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted June 7, 2019 Share #55 Â Posted June 7, 2019 On 6/5/2019 at 7:37 PM, Bob Andersson said: Photons to Photos has some preliminary data up for the GFX 100. I think this is relevant for the SL2 discussion because of the comparison with the older generation sensor in the GFX 50S.Here is the dynamic range comparison between the Leica SL, Lumix S1R, GFX 100 and GFX 50S -,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,SNIP .......................................................... And the dynamic ranger of the 64MP sensor system in the coming S3 is reported to be greater than that of the 37MP S (Typ 007) which itself is bigger than that of the SL Â Â Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted June 7, 2019 Share #56  Posted June 7, 2019 From the Leica website: http://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-S/Leica-S-System on the S3 sensor â...with its innovative Leica Proformat Sensor...â Well, why reserve all the sensor innovation for S users? The R&D is spent anyway. They should just scale it down to FF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jplomley Posted June 8, 2019 Share #57 Â Posted June 8, 2019 Fck the SL2, get the goddamn Summicrons out the bloody door! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted June 8, 2019 Share #58  Posted June 8, 2019 History shows that whenever Leica assigns a name to an innovation, it's used in more than one model, EyeRes EVF, for example. So, I'm hopeful that ProFormat sensors will appear in other Leica cameras. It's good marketing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted June 8, 2019 Share #59 Â Posted June 8, 2019 Proformat Just means 30x45mm I think. It wonât fit in the mount diameter or image circle of their other systems. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted June 8, 2019 Share #60  Posted June 8, 2019 vor 14 Minuten schrieb hoppyman: Proformat Just means 30x45mm I think. It wonât fit in the mount diameter or image circle of their other systems. +1. Thatâs what I thought initially and if it refers to the MF sensor dimensions 30x45 strictly, then itâs pointless to hope that the sensor brand can be adapted for the SL. The way they state it âwith its innovative Leica ProFormat sensorâ makes it a bit ambiguous, though. From a marketing perspective it wouldnât be impossible to promote the use a FF âProFormatâ sensor if the same enhanced color response as in the S3 is emphasized. The aspect ratio would be 3:2 in FF as well, so ProFormat. đ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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