M-A Rewind Knob Question/Possible Problem

[Guest]

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Hi guys, I've recently been lucky enough to acquire an M-A, my first Leica with the M3 style rewind knob. I've just shot my first roll, and had a bit of a problem rewinding: twice during the rewinding, the tension slackened off considerably, making me think the roll was completely rewound ... at which point of course I opened the camera, only to find it wasn't, and thus ruining the roll 😞

Is this "normal" behaviour with this kind of rewind system? Having previously used the M6 style angled lever, I'm used to consistent(ish) tension during the process, which obviously fooled me this time. If it is normal, no problem, I will just be more aware of it next time. I'm somewhat worried there might be a problem with the camera though - it feels a bit like the film is "slipping" on the sprockets, although I'm really just guessing.

Thanks in advance for any help and advice.

[105012]

I don’t notice this slackening off on my M3’s, not sure if it is simply (unconscious) technique or something related to the M-A?

Also, with the M3 one is left in no doubt as to when the roll is fully rewound, I cannot imagine how it would be possible to make this mistake with an M3. The reason for this is the way the film is attached to the spool of an M3.

[PaulJohn]

The key is not to let go of it while rewinding. I listen for the film coming off the sprocket and can now judge whether I want the leader out for home dev or in for lab dev.

There are videos on YouTube of how to retrieve a leader if you rewind too far. I know you didn't ask that but it does mean that you can keep on rewinding if you aren't sure.

[ShivaYash]

Doesn't sound right... the review knob should not spin back when rewinder. Best to try it again with that ruined roll and ensure there is no pilot error - i.e. the rewind lever was not fully engaged or some other minor issue.

Good luck getting it sorted.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, PaulJohn said:

The key is not to let go of it while rewinding.

I know with the M6 style the key is not to let go of it, but on the M-A, you don't need to do that - there is no "spring back" issue.

From what has been said so far though, what I experienced doesn't sound right unfortunately 😞

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, ShivaYash said:

Doesn't sound right... the review knob should not spin back when rewinder. Best to try it again with that ruined roll and ensure there is no pilot error - i.e. the rewind lever was not fully engaged or some other minor issue.

Good luck getting it sorted.

Thanks, I just tried it again with a test roll, and it worked perfectly fine, exactly as I expected. As far as I know I didn't do anything different, but perhaps it could indeed have been something like the rewind lever wasn't fully engaged? I'll make 100% that's fully clicked in from now on anyway. Also, I wonder perhaps if I hadn't pulled up the knob fully, could that possibly lead to such problems?

Edited May 15, 2019 by Guest

[PaulJohn]

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59 minutes ago, AndyGarton said:

I know with the M6 style the key is not to let go of it, but on the M-A, you don't need to do that - there is no "spring back" issue.

From what has been said so far though, what I experienced doesn't sound right unfortunately 😞

I was speaking from experience as that is how my m-a behaves. If I let go completely it does spring back a little. This feels natural to me as the tension inside the real is released. Are you saying that if you let go mid rewind that nothing moves and no noise is heard?

Release of tension could possibly disengage the film from the sprockets?

Edited May 15, 2019 by PaulJohn

[jmahto]

51 minutes ago, AndyGarton said:

wonder perhaps if I hadn't pulled up the knob fully, could that possibly lead to such problems?

I was going to suggest that. In any case I don’t take take a chance in keeping the leader out (if you are trying to do it). Let it fully go in and if needed pull the leader out with proper tool. 

Btw, I am speaking from M2 experience.

Edited May 15, 2019 by jmahto

[Guest]

To PaulJohn: Yes. I was letting go (briefly) between turns. It must be quite fiddly to try and keep hold of it all the time?

Edited May 15, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, jmahto said:

I was going to suggest that. In any case I don’t take take a chance in keeping the leader out (if you are trying to do it). Let it fully go in and if needed pull the leader out with proper tool. 

Thanks. I wasn't trying to keep the leader out.

[ckuwajima]

Make sure you pull the knob fully up. On my MP it gives a subtle click.

Rewind the film until you hear the film coming off the sprocket. And yes, the knob turns back a little with the film tension.

[PaulJohn]

5 minutes ago, AndyGarton said:

To PaulJohn: Yes. I was letting go (briefly) between turns. It must be quite fiddly to try and keep hold of it all the time?

 

5 minutes ago, AndyGarton said:

To PaulJohn: Yes. I was letting go (briefly) between turns. It must be quite fiddly to try and keep hold of it all the time?

With a neck strap my left hand is free to hold the camera and use my finger to hold it between turns. Once I had straight line scratches on a film and have been doing this since then assuming the scratch came from letting go. 

[a.noctilux]

7 minutes ago, AndyGarton said:

To PaulJohn: Yes. I was letting go (briefly) between turns. It must be quite fiddly to try and keep hold of it all the time?

I think that the same occured to me long time ago, the rewind knob wasn't pull out completely half way and rewind resistance dropped, so I stopped rewinding.

This must not occur, as I just tried on the M-A knob, to feel the difference, the knob must be put inside about 5mm, then the red index doesn't turn.

 

Now I keep a digit (index most of time) of the other hand to push and feel the knob "fully up" while rewinding.

[Guest]

Ok great, thanks guys. I'm pretty sure now that the issue was that the knob wasn't pulled up fully/properly (probably slipping down briefly which was when I felt the tension drop). A hard lesson learned! Perhaps some of the roll can be salvaged, I will have it developed regardless.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Guest

[a.noctilux]

If the rewinding was stopped at mid roll, the last frames must be safe in the cartridge.

Fifty/fifty maybe.

[250swb]

On 5/15/2019 at 3:02 PM, AndyGarton said:

Ok great, thanks guys. I'm pretty sure now that the issue was that the knob wasn't pulled up fully/properly (probably slipping down briefly which was when I felt the tension drop). A hard lesson learned! Perhaps some of the roll can be salvaged, I will have it developed regardless.

I wouldn't necessarily put money on it. The knob type rewind has a very crude clutch to stop it unraveling the film if you let go of the knob during rewind. It doesn't take long for the clutch to become dry and ineffective, so a brand new camera and you can let go of the knob while you rewind the film, a slightly older camera and you can't. Now it isn't a big problem, not something you need to send it to Leica for service for, but just make sure as you rewind to keep tension on the rewind knob. Old hands who have been through many iterations of M cameras know how to do this and still rewind quickly, but don't believe the Leica advertising. Rewind anyway until you hear the film leader go fully into the cassette, a sort of flappy sound that becomes second nature.