New to the MA - Tips & Tricks - What Light Meter ?

[M10Alpine]

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Ok - I'm taking a steep in to the abyss - I'm a total hobbyis but I like a challenge. I love shooting film and my M7 is absolutely beautiful. So let take this challenge a steep further and see what will happen with a MA. 

I'm pretty shitty at getting the exposure right so this is going to be difficult for me. 
 

Basic tips and trick - how do I get it right? What shall I think of? 

I obviously need a external light meter. So what should I get? Portable yet accurate.

Please feel free to fire away!

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[Paul Verrips]

If you want to experience shooting sunny 16 and/or working with a external lightmeter.........
Take out the battery of your M7, use a 125 ASA film, set your shutterspeed to 125 (mechanical) and start the experience. Keeping the battery in the M7 will disturb metering because you can see camera results in the finder.

For metering i use or an iphone app (my lightmeter), Sekonic L-398A (die hard analog, no digital screen) or a Sekonic L358. iphone app is what i use most, IF metering is necessary.

Basic trips/tricks --->  https://www.slrlounge.com/photography-essentials-the-sunny-16-rule/   (i used this one when i started).
First i started metering several moments a day without shooting, just for building up references. Day after day after day after week etc. 
After a while you notice that sunny 16 is really a good starting point, so i started by just following the sunny 16 rule mixed with my own experiences and references.
I really didn't lost a roll of film shifting to this kind of metering, maybe in the beginning just one or two shots per roll with high contrast situations.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Paul Verrips

[pico]

31 minutes ago, M10Alpine said:

Ok - I'm taking a steep in to the abyss - I'm a total hobbyis but I like a challenge. I love shooting film and my M7 is absolutely beautiful. So let take this challenge a steep further and see what will happen with a MA.

Don't go there. Your M7 is perfectly capable.

[IkarusJohn]

Just now, pico said:

Don't go there. Your M7 is perfectly capable.

Not so sure that is the entire picture, Pico.  Sure, a challenge should have a purpose, rather than just satisfying GAS, but there may be a point to this.

My father taught me photography using sunny 16.  He had a Bessamatic (a not very good camera), and used an incident light meter.  What I learned from that first bellows rangefinder was that light generally falls on all objects equally (aside from shadow, of course.  We photograph light, and the most accurate way to do that is to set exposure for the light that falls on the subject, rather than the light reflected from it.

Built in reflective meters do have a tendency to deceive.  They also have a tendency to make us lazy - move the spot around to get a sense of the extremes, chose what looks like an average, and exposure for that - and over time, probably don’t think about it that much ...

[pico]

Regardless of how a reflective (or other) light meter can deceive, does it deceive enough to make a picture less? What is the consequence when a sunny-sixteen maven errs compared to one who uses an adequate BTL meter? I submit that the intuitive sunny rule is no better than a modest BTL reading. It is good to remember that us 35mm photographers spread our measures across many exposures, not just one in a roll.

 

[ShivaYash]

Over expose. It will be fine. 

[IkarusJohn]

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48 minutes ago, pico said:

Regardless of how a reflective (or other) light meter can deceive, does it deceive enough to make a picture less? What is the consequence when a sunny-sixteen maven errs compared to one who uses an adequate BTL meter? I submit that the intuitive sunny rule is no better than a modest BTL reading. It is good to remember that us 35mm photographers spread our measures across many exposures, not just one in a roll.

 

Very true.

[M10Alpine]

2 hours ago, pico said:

Don't go there. Your M7 is perfectly capable.

I'm keeping my M7

[Rungroj Suppagarn]

I have used leica M-A for a few months now and shoot more than 30 rolls.

My suggestion is using sunny 16.

When you shoot outside and the sun bright use F16

Shade or under the tree (when sun bright ) use F5.6

If you have the sun on the back of you subject +1 stop.

Overcast ? F8 

when shooting film even if you are over 2 - 3 stops it still find but do not under if you not push the film.

shoot in door I alway set F2 and speed 15 or 30 or 60 its depend on the light.

The most thing is just try shooting a lot and I can guess the light 9/10 I am right : ) .

when you understand well it is very easy to see the frame and picture in your head before you click the shutter.

good luck and have fun !!!

 

* Edit for some words and my gramman I am Thai XD. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Rungroj Suppagarn

[TomB_tx]

When I started with meterless cameras (1950s), Kodak films came with an instruction sheet with a table of suggested shutter speed and aperture combinations for different outdoor conditions. By the 1960s I understood the Sunny 16 concept, but also just remembered the film instructions.

However, most of my photography has been indoor, available light, where Sunny 16 is irrelevant. I just learned to estimate.

Of course, now I have a collection of handheld meters of different types (incident, reflective, spot), and find as long as you understand how each meters you can do well with any of them.

I still estimate by eye first, then check a meter if I have one, and seldom need to change my estimate. So I’m comfortable just evaluating a room and shooting until the light changes. Don’t obsess over every shot or you’ll miss the best moment.

[M10Alpine]

8 hours ago, Rungroj Suppagarn said:

I have used leica M-A for a few months now and shoot more than 30 rolls.

My suggestion is using sunny 16.

When you shoot outside and the sun bright use F16

Shade or under the tree (when sun bright ) use F5.6

If you have the sun on the back of you subject +1 stop.

Overcast ? F8 

when shooting film even if you are over 2 - 3 stops it still find but do not under if you not push the film.

shoot in door I alway set F2 and speed 15 or 30 or 60 its depend on the light.

The most thing is just try shooting a lot and I can guess the light 9/10 I am right : ) .

when you understand well it is very easy to see the frame and picture in your head before you click the shutter.

good luck and have fun !!!

 

* Edit for some words and my gramman I am Thai XD. 

May thanks! 

[M10Alpine]

On then topic of Light Meter: 

This two looks portable and affordable: 

Sekonic SE L308X

Gossen DigiPro F2

Anyone who as an opinion? The light meter suggested above by Paul is discontinued for a touch screen version. 

[01af]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb TomB_tx:

I still estimate by eye first, then check a meter if I have one, and seldom need to change my estimate.

That's how I do it, too. The meter I'm using is the Minolta Flash-Meter VI which I purchased used from eBay. It is still available by Kenko under the name KFM-2100. It can meter incident light and spot-meter reflected light in one unit without attaching or removing any accessory parts—that's why I'm using this particular model. Sekonic offers similar light meters (the L-758 and L-858 series) but those are very expensive.

[M10Alpine]

1 hour ago, 01af said:

That's how I do it, too. The meter I'm using is the Minolta Flash-Meter VI which I purchased used from eBay. It is still available by Kenko under the name KFM-2100. It can meter incident light and spot-meter reflected light in one unit without attaching or removing any accessory parts—that's why I'm using this particular model. Sekonic offers similar light meters (the L-758 and L-858 series) but those are very expensive.

I just found and bought a second hand Sekonic L358 from a site that is usually a scam so lets see. Its worth a tray at 200€. 

[AndreasG]

From an early Hasselblad 500CM adventure I still keep a pretty bulky Gossen Lunasix F, sometimes I use it with a M4-P, maily to confirm my aperture/shutter settings.

[M10Alpine]

Some say they shoot ISO 400 film as it was ISO 200 - is that making sense? 

How do I manage speed best - fast?

I totally get the Sunny 16 rule - I also appreciate I will get this after having practiced. 

[a.noctilux]

24 minutes ago, M10Alpine said:

Some say they shoot ISO 400 film as it was ISO 200 - is that making sense? 

 

As a rule of thumb, to simplify things maybe : negative is "better" when over-exposed.

But you will see with practice that this suites you or not, experiences may tell.

[edw]

4 hours ago, M10Alpine said:

Some say they shoot ISO 400 film as it was ISO 200 - is that making sense? 

How do I manage speed best - fast?

I totally get the Sunny 16 rule - I also appreciate I will get this after having practiced. 

As was just said, you negative film behaves in a way opposite to digital image sensors: you want to err on the side of giving negative film more light. Is overexposing everything by a stop a good policy? (Which is what "treat the ISO 400 film as 200" means.) Meh. It all depends. Advice and opinion around here are based on implicit value judgements that may not be consistent with your worldview or goals.[1]

For example, if you are shooting in the dark, you might prefer the loss of dynamic range that a faster shutter gets you so that you don't need to deal with blur from camera shake or movement of your subject. Another way to bring in more light is to open up the aperture, but then you're giving up depth of field—and requiring more precise focusing. I also hear there is a thing called a "flash" that can somehow alter the exposure…

There is no magic. Understand the basics of negative film. Understand the exposure triangle and the tradeoffs inherent therein. Grab a lightmeter that suits your needs.[2] Shoot a ton of film and gain experience turning the resulting negatives into usable images.[3] Try to bring the same acuteness of observation to the process of capturing images that you bring to selecting or creating the images you capture. Over time you may find that you can wing it when it comes to exposure (this is called "Sunny 16") or you may find your sticking your light meter in your subject's face before you take a picture. You do you.

Notes

1. Given that Kodak does not recommend any additional developing time for Tri-X 400 in order to push it a stop (and thus treat it as EI800 film), it seems that at least on film has plenty of ability to preserve shadow detail and therefore dogmatically robbing yourself of an f-stop may be rather pointless.
2. I like the Sekonic Flashmate L-308X(-U) because it does aperture and shutter priority and has a big display.
3. Prints or scans.

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[M10Alpine]

5 hours ago, edw said:

As was just said, you negative film behaves in a way opposite to digital image sensors: you want to err on the side of giving negative film more light. Is overexposing everything by a stop a good policy? (Which is what "treat the ISO 400 film as 200" means.) Meh. It all depends. Advice and opinion around here are based on implicit value judgements that may not be consistent with your worldview or goals.[1]

For example, if you are shooting in the dark, you might prefer the loss of dynamic range that a faster shutter gets you so that you don't need to deal with blur from camera shake or movement of your subject. Another way to bring in more light is to open up the aperture, but then you're giving up depth of field—and requiring more precise focusing. I also hear there is a thing called a "flash" that can somehow alter the exposure…

There is no magic. Understand the basics of negative film. Understand the exposure triangle and the tradeoffs inherent therein. Grab a lightmeter that suits your needs.[2] Shoot a ton of film and gain experience turning the resulting negatives into usable images.[3] Try to bring the same acuteness of observation to the process of capturing images that you bring to selecting or creating the images you capture. Over time you may find that you can wing it when it comes to exposure (this is called "Sunny 16") or you may find your sticking your light meter in your subject's face before you take a picture. You do you.

Notes

1. Given that Kodak does not recommend any additional developing time for Tri-X 400 in order to push it a stop (and thus treat it as EI800 film), it seems that at least on film has plenty of ability to preserve shadow detail and therefore dogmatically robbing yourself of an f-stop may be rather pointless.
2. I like the Sekonic Flashmate L-308X(-U) because it does aperture and shutter priority and has a big display.
3. Prints or scans.

Thanks!

[250swb]

18 hours ago, M10Alpine said:

I totally get the Sunny 16 rule - I also appreciate I will get this after having practiced. 

Working with real facts, and not with educated guesses, means you don't need to waste your time practicing. Cross referencing facts with what you see also educates your brain in a way the printed instructions on the back of a film box never can because facts deal with all situations. Facts also deal with subtle variations of light, something you should make use of rather than a broad brush approach of 'that'll be close enough'. The best and only way to work with facts is to use a meter from the outset. 

So which meter to use? Well a good meter for the M-A is the one that comes already fitted in the MP,  but even better than that is a hand held meter with a manual dial because it immediately shows you all the variations of exposure possible without the need to calculate anything much. So f/16 at 1/60th is the same exposure as f/4 at 1/1000th, and armed with this sort of information you can make the practical choice of do you need the fast shutter speed, or do you want to make a creative choice and use DOF, and all these facts are visible on the dial in one swift scan of the eye. A good meter with a manual dial is the Sekonic Twinmate L-208, and it's also small and the batteries last for ages. Other than that you can go with a slim Sekonic L-308 in one of it's variations, and these are very good meters, but I don't think they train a photographer as well as using a manual dial does, but anything that gives an accurate and consistently impartial reading is going to be better than practicing 'Sunny 16'.