APO 50 contrast

[TDR]

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Much has been written about the new SL Summicrons, in particular the way that an increased contrast helps separate the subject from the background. Since the M 50mm APO was the forerunner of these new SL Summicron lenses, I'm wondering if the 50 APO also demonstrates this effect. Bear in mind that I'm not referring to depth of field but the effect of increased contrast at the point of focus. Here is how the Leica website describes this in its description of the 35mm SL Summicron: "(S)harply focused objects show much higher contrast than objects that are out of focus. This means that objects “snap” more distinctly out of the foreground or background and more effectively isolate the subject. This creates a three-dimensional visual effect with very impressive apparent depth." 

Here is a link to that webpage, where there is also a chart that describes this effect: http://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-SL/SL-Lenses/Prime-Lenses/APO-Summicron-SL-35

Again, my question is, have users of the M 50 APO noticed this effect?

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[james.liam]

Yes. 

The bokeh is rendered in a neutral but pleasing way; no swirling, ‘nervousness’ or the dreamy look of the 50 Noctilux. It is not the center of attention. It’s also lower in contrast so it further disappears and attention at f/2 is drawn solely on the subject, rendered with extreme clarity and purity of color. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by james.liam

[lct]

Interesting question. I'm no techie at all but i'm not sure to follow Leica's explanation about its SL 75/2 vs M 75/1.4 comparo. In my experience limited to M 75/2 and 75/1.4, i found that DoF has the same total value with both lenses but that there is more DoF behind than in front of the subject matter with the 75/1.4. The M 75/2 has perhaps a more "Zeiss-like" behavior from this viewpoint. I did not redo the same (boring) comparo between M 50/2 and M 50/2 apo but it is true that the latter may give a feeling of shallower DoF in some circumstances although this is purely subjective so far and may be due to the fact that the apo has better macro and micro contrast as well. YMM vastly V.

[TDR]

The concept of heightened contrast adding to the sense of separation from the background, like depth of field but not depth of field, is interesting. I'm thinking of trading my Noctilux for the APO because my style has evolved. I no longer want the dreamy look. I want the sharp details, but I want to separate the subject from the rest of the picture. A wide aperture will do that, but it would be enhanced by this heightened contrast. It would make sense that the M 50 Summicron APO would have the same effect as the SL Summicrons. Peter Karbe says he used the M 50 APO as his model.  

[dkmoore]

52 minutes ago, lct said:

Interesting question. I'm no techie at all but i'm not sure to follow Leica's explanation about its SL 75/2 vs M 75/1.4 comparo. In my experience limited to M 75/2 and 75/1.4, i found that DoF has the same total value with both lenses but that there is more DoF behind than in front of the subject matter with the 75/1.4. The M 75/2 has perhaps a more "Zeiss-like" behavior from this viewpoint. I did not redo the same (boring) comparo between M 50/2 and M 50/2 apo but it is true that the latter may give a feeling of shallower DoF in some circumstances although this is purely subjective so far and may be due to the fact that the apo has better macro and micro contrast as well. YMM vastly V.

I was very recently told (last week) by a Leica technician that this is due to sample variation. For instance, different pieces of glass from different product runs, different numbers of shims, other things like that. I posted about a similar observation with the 50 Lux black chrome. 

[dkmoore]

34 minutes ago, TDR said:

The concept of heightened contrast adding to the sense of separation from the background, like depth of field but not depth of field, is interesting. I'm thinking of trading my Noctilux for the APO because my style has evolved. I no longer want the dreamy look. I want the sharp details, but I want to separate the subject from the rest of the picture. A wide aperture will do that, but it would be enhanced by this heightened contrast. It would make sense that the M 50 Summicron APO would have the same effect as the SL Summicrons. Peter Karbe says he used the M 50 APO as his model.  

I would test the 50 Noct at F2 versus the APO before you go down that rabbit hole. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by dkmoore

[lct]

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Little chance that any 50/2 can do that (M 50/1.4 asph at f/1.4). I would not expect the M 50/2 apo to compete at f/2 with any Noctilux at f/1 re DoF but i may be wrong.

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Edited March 19, 2019 by lct

[romanus53]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb lct:

Little chance that any 50/2 can do that (M 50/1.4 asph at f/1.4). I would not expect the M 50/2 apo to compete at f/2 with any Noctilux at f/1 re DoF but i may be wrong.

Maybe the 50 Apo Shows a Little more dof but out-of-Focus Areas (or say bokeh) looked smoother compared to the 50 Lux to me. So I sold the Lux as I didn't Need the Speed.

[LichtUndDunkelheit]

Honestly I find "neutral" bokeh to be quite dull and boring. The only way down from that is the ugly mud that most zooms and some more recent primes "offer". Which is basically also neutral Bokeh, except theres some other types mixed in to create the "mud" effect.

I much rather would like to have for example the "fluffy" bokeh of the Tokina Opera 50mm f1.4 (available for Pentax, Canon, and Nikon).

Or the "noble" Bokeh of the Pentax Takumar 50mm f1.4 (M42 mount; the seven element, radioactive variant).

The recent Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f1.2 VM also has interesting Bokeh, though I dont like the pronounced catseye highlights too much.

[james.liam]

3 hours ago, LichtUndDunkelheit said:

Honestly I find "neutral" bokeh to be quite dull and boring. The only way down from that is the ugly mud that most zooms and some more recent primes "offer". Which is basically also neutral Bokeh, except theres some other types mixed in to create the "mud" effect.

I much rather would like to have for example the "fluffy" bokeh of the Tokina Opera 50mm f1.4 (available for Pentax, Canon, and Nikon).

Or the "noble" Bokeh of the Pentax Takumar 50mm f1.4 (M42 mount; the seven element, radioactive variant).

The recent Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f1.2 VM also has interesting Bokeh, though I dont like the pronounced catseye highlights too much.

Different horses for different courses. It isn't the only 50 I have but shot on a Monochrom, the astounding detail resolved, micro-contrast (at ƒ/2!!!) and background which melts away, leave a powerful impression to the totality of the image that appeals to me. Perhaps less apparent on the full-spectrum sensors.

But not all the time; got both a 50 Rigid & Canon 50/1.4 LTM when a different look is needed/desired. One's taste evolves.

Edited March 20, 2019 by james.liam

[low325]

The 50APO has its technical merit that’s for sure.  But i think in order to see where it excels (or any ‘special’ lens) will depend on how the light enters the lens.  Without being so romantic about it, it is what is referred to as painting with light...  Agree with what is said with the 50APO already, there is no character of the lens, there is no distraction it just seems to report exactly what you point it to.

[evikne]

My biggest dream is a Noctilux with the size and near limit of a Summicron or a Summilux! Could it be possible to lower the defocus contrast even further, in such a way that an f/1.4–2.0 lens could make a background blur comparable to an f/1.0 lens? That would have been the most versatile lens ever!

I don't need the extra f-stop in terms of "speed", I'm only interested in how the main subject is isolated from the background. So maybe this is the way to go in the future to make the "bokeh lenses" smaller?

[budjames]

On 3/22/2019 at 7:28 AM, evikne said:

My biggest dream is a Noctilux with the size and near limit of a Summicron or a Summilux! Could it be possible to lower the defocus contrast even further, in such a way that an f/1.4–2.0 lens could make a background blur comparable to an f/1.0 lens? That would have been the most versatile lens ever!

I don't need the extra f-stop in terms of "speed", I'm only interested in how the main subject is isolated from the background. So maybe this is the way to go in the future to make the "bokeh lenses" smaller?

The laws of physics might thwart your wish. If a lens could be made smaller, then I think it would have already been done. Although I own the current Noctilux 50, I rarely use it due to it's size and weight.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

[albertknappmd]

On 3/19/2019 at 4:05 PM, TDR said:

The concept of heightened contrast adding to the sense of separation from the background, like depth of field but not depth of field, is interesting. I'm thinking of trading my Noctilux for the APO because my style has evolved. I no longer want the dreamy look. I want the sharp details, but I want to separate the subject from the rest of the picture. A wide aperture will do that, but it would be enhanced by this heightened contrast. It would make sense that the M 50 Summicron APO would have the same effect as the SL Summicrons. Peter Karbe says he used the M 50 APO as his model.  

U will love the 50 APO. It is the sharpest lens I have ever used.

Albert