Leica Rigid Summicron-M 2.0/50mm Black Paint

[pedaes]

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13 minutes ago, Ivar B said:

I sold one lens through Westlicht, and told myself never again. Let us assume the hammer price was 100. They add 20 % on the hammer price, so buyer pays 120. They deduct 20 % for the seller, who then receives 80. Total fees 20 + 20 = 40 or 40 % of the hammer price. I find that excessive, but of course this is magnified when in my case the hammer price was not even close to the assessment and it would have been much better with a direct sale. I sold my Noctilux 1.2/50mm on Facebook for about 17 500 Euros, which is or was the same price as realised in auctions. However, fees were then 0 % either way. 

You seem to be concerned that Westlicht make 40% commission. Given their  standing (albeit now morphed into Leica Wetzlar auctions) and the Catologue they produce and e-mail around the world I think they will get the big buyers competing, in which case, as Susie says, bit of a bargain at 20% +vat.

Edited March 2, 2019 by pedaes

[Ivar B]

3 minutes ago, pedaes said:

You seem to be concerned that Westlicht make 40% commission. Given their  standing (albeit now morphed into Leica Wetzlar auctions) and the Catologue they produce and e-mail around the world I think they will get the big buyers competing, in which case, as Susie says, bit of a bargain at 20% +vat. 

No doubt this is true for many cases, and not true for other cases. I always ask if a service provider adds value for me or can achieve something I could not have achieved myself. eBay also reaches very widely, and although their fees have increased also, they are still lower that Westlicht. 

[Pecole]

I had two black paint Summicron 50 in my Fontenelle collection : nº 1587389 came with black paint M3 nº 911382, and nº 1836370 wit black paint M2 nº 990511.

Here are the photos I found in my archives. One sees immediately the differences between the ancient and more recent Sommicron, notably the focusing rings and the bayonets (copper on the ancient one, chromed metal on the newer one). About the black paint M3, it should be noted that even the frame counter is black.

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[luigi bertolotti]

Well... I have never sold anything through ebay (but... am not a big seller, anyway...still mostly a buyer...😉) but I think that for such an item is worth a try, putting a reasonable price... in the high side (4000 Euros ?).  Anyway, as for my sentiment, I would be very hesitant to spend such an amount on ebay... let'say that I'd prefer to spend 4500 on Leicashop or similar than 4000 on ebay - same item ceteris paribus.

[pedaes]

21 minutes ago, Ivar B said:

No doubt this is true for many cases, and not true for other cases. I always ask if a service provider adds value for me or can achieve something I could not have achieved myself. eBay also reaches very widely, and although their fees have increased also, they are still lower that Westlicht. 

Whatever you are comfortable with. If you are confident they will provide best price for your new friend, go for it. I am sure he will be delighted with a return over €4000.

[Michael Geschlecht]

18 hours ago, sandro said:

Perhaps there is another interesting element on this lens. To the right of the M of the focusing scale, and right under 'feet' the number 19 is engraved, to indicate the real focal point of 51,9 mm. We have discussed this feature several times in the forum, and that feature appears on several lenses. My chrome (of course) version of the rigid Summicron 50mm is from 1960. It does not show such a number on the position as I noticed in Ivar's black lens, but the same number appears in another variation engraved by hand on the lens head as 51,9.

Both on my Elmar 2.8/50mm (1961) and on my Summicron 2/50mm version III he number 19 appears in more or less the same position as on Ivar's black Summicron. Would be interesting to know if anything is engraved on the lens head.

Lex

Hello Sandro,

The engraving of the end numbers of the actual measured focal length of a lens, to the 1/10th of a millimeter, marked in 1/10th's of a millimeter without the decimal point, began around 1960. This is an imprecise date which varies not only lens by lens but also reflective of different versions of the same lens.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited March 2, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht

[Susie]

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Aah yes I see what you mean.  The auctioneer  makes commission on both sides of the sale.  In your first post it sounded as if you thought the seller had to pay the whole 40%.  Of course it is even worse when the buyer has to pay VAT on the hammer price as well as on the commission.

[JazzyMac]

Have you tried Fred Miranda?  Or even selling back to a Leica dealer?

[dkCambridgeshire]

1 hour ago, Susie said:

Aah yes I see what you mean.  The auctioneer  makes commission on both sides of the sale.  In your first post it sounded as if you thought the seller had to pay the whole 40%.  Of course it is even worse when the buyer has to pay VAT on the hammer price as well as on the commission.

Buyers only pay VAT on hammer price when the auction lot has been submitted by a VAT registered seller. There is no VAT due on the hammer price when the lot is entered by a non-VAT registered seller. VAT is due on the commission because the auctioneer is VAT registered and the company's 'auction service' is subject to VAT charges. Nearly all the major European auction houses operate in the same way i.e. they charge the seller commission and charges and also charge the buyer a % premium i.e. the buyer's premium. Most buyers are happy to pay the premium knowing that the lot is likely to be authentic and genuine and accurately described … which is not always the case with some disingenuous and unscrupulous Ebay sellers. There is never a week goes by when a dodgy Ebay seller attempts to sell e.g. a fake or 'bitsa' Rolex or Panerai watch … or a dodgy Leica collectible made in the Far East or Russia. 

dunk 

[Ivar B]

9 hours ago, Susie said:

Aah yes I see what you mean.  The auctioneer  makes commission on both sides of the sale.  In your first post it sounded as if you thought the seller had to pay the whole 40%.  Of course it is even worse when the buyer has to pay VAT on the hammer price as well as on the commission.

Exactly. But also the buyer premium is indirectly paid by the seller also, as this presumably limits what a buyer is prepared to pay for the item. As an economist, I consider this monopoly pricing. I see that competitors are entering the market as well now (Wetzlar Auctions) and hopefully this will put a pressure on fees, 

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, Ivar B said:

...... hopefully this will put a pressure on fees, 

You can hope, but it will not.  Ivar, I could equally argue that a seller gets a better price because a high reputation auction house is selling the item and it will attract higher bids. Also think items realise their true value by auction. Do you think the Null series Leicas would have attained over €2m twice other than by a specialist auction?  But, you go whatever route you think best, it is good to have choices. Using Paypal, E-bay fees come to 14% which is not insignificant, unless you catch a 'sell for a €' offer and then it is only 4%.

[Ivar B]

4 minutes ago, pedaes said:

You can hope, but it will not.  Ivar, I could equally argue that a seller gets a better price because a high reputation auction house is selling the item and it will attract higher bids. Also think items realise their true value by auction. Do you think the Null series Leicas would have attained over €2m twice other than by a specialist auction?  But, you go whatever route you think best, it is good to have choices. Using Paypal, E-bay fees come to 14% which is not insignificant, unless you catch a 'sell for a €' offer and then it is only 4%.

I agree regarding very special and rare items. If you own a Rembrand or Munch, you don`t sell through an ad in the local paper. I noticed, by the way, that a similar lens to the one I have was sold by Westlicht for 6 600 Euros. Serial numbers are again very close. Some dealers also sell on commission. Reputable dealers like Meister in Hamburg at least did in the past, and I believe the charge was 20 %. An auction would probaby reach more prospective buyers globally.

[Guest]

Ivar sold a lens for 17.5k € . 

I haven‘t. I think Ivar asked for other advise than how to sell.

Sold a lens for exactly 6k€ three years ago to a friend and he‘s pleased because the price holds and he is using it. Other than that my few sales never exceeded 4K€ each and the threshold to five digits would send me to one of the two I know for a long time being present now in Wetzlar.

Could it be that not only collectibles and buyers differ, but also sellers and pathways for successful deals?

 

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by tri

[dkCambridgeshire]

46 minutes ago, Ivar B said:

I agree regarding very special and rare items. If you own a Rembrand or Munch, you don`t sell through an ad in the local paper. I noticed, by the way, that a similar lens to the one I have was sold by Westlicht for 6 600 Euros. Serial numbers are again very close. Some dealers also sell on commission. Reputable dealers like Meister in Hamburg at least did in the past, and I believe the charge was 20 %. An auction would probaby reach more prospective buyers globally.

The WestLicht Auction certainly did reach the global market as anyone who has 'tuned in' to the actual sales via Live Auctioneers can testify when witnessing the exciting telephone and online bids and the frenzied room atmosphere as a lot neared its record price … likely a price paid by a Far East collector .. and maybe bid for them by their agent. Scarce and rare Leica items with high demand invariably command premium prices via the major auction houses … specialist auction houses who know the (their) market better than e.g. Ebay. WestLicht's marketing  and pre-sale publicity has succeeded with camera and photographic print auctions where other major auction houses failed.

However, nothing is certain. All sales including Ebay are a risk … but the risk can be lessened by choosing the best vehicle.

Private buyers offer another means of selling but with a scarce Leica collectable the seller will likely ponder whether he/she could have done better via an established auction house …especially when a similar (or the exact same!) item is offered in a future sale and achieves a much higher price. 

Selling through a dealer is another avenue but it's often the case that dealers have a 'waiting list' … thus the item is never listed by the dealer … and the price realised may not be the true market value. 

dunk

Edited March 3, 2019 by dkCambridgeshire

[Guest]

Btw I‘ve noticed a platform called www.catawiki.com located in NL.

Photo gear and photo-books to be found.

Have I overlooked a feedback rating system?

It would be greatly appreciated hearing from the ones with experience how it goes.

 

[jc_braconi]

1 hour ago, tri said:

Btw I‘ve noticed a platform called www.catawiki.com located in NL.

Photo gear and photo-books to be found.

Have I overlooked a feedback rating system?

It would be greatly appreciated hearing from the ones with experience how it goes.

 

It goes, I got some things from it, it is a large dealing enterprise.

[jc_braconi]

2 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

The WestLicht Auction certainly did reach the global market as anyone who has 'tuned in' to the actual sales via Live Auctioneers can testify when witnessing the exciting telephone and online bids and the frenzied room atmosphere as a lot neared its record price … likely a price paid by a Far East collector .. and maybe bid for them by their agent. Scarce and rare Leica items with high demand invariably command premium prices via the major auction houses … specialist auction houses who know the (their) market better than e.g. Ebay. WestLicht's marketing  and pre-sale publicity has succeeded with camera and photographic print auctions where other major auction houses failed.

However, nothing is certain. All sales including Ebay are a risk … but the risk can be lessened by choosing the best vehicle.

Private buyers offer another means of selling but with a scarce Leica collectable the seller will likely ponder whether he/she could have done better via an established auction house …especially when a similar (or the exact same!) item is offered in a future sale and achieves a much higher price. 

Selling through a dealer is another avenue but it's often the case that dealers have a 'waiting list' … thus the item is never listed by the dealer … and the price realised may not be the true market value. 

dunk

Even great sellers use Ebay 
No fear when using Paypal, or you get it or you are fully reimbursed 

[dkCambridgeshire]

5 minutes ago, jc_braconi said:

Even great sellers use Ebay 
No fear when using Paypal, or you get it or you are fully reimbursed 

Paypal does not always sort out disputes satisfactorily e.g. finds in favour of the buyer when it's  the buyer who has submitted a false claim. I hear of this happening fairly frequently on another forum. 

dunk 

[Stacey]

42 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Paypal does not always sort out disputes satisfactorily e.g. finds in favour of the buyer when it's  the buyer who has submitted a false claim. I hear of this happening fairly frequently on another forum. 

dunk 

That would be my fear on an item like this. Don't get me wrong, I've sold some $1500 USD + items on there. But there always is a fear of a buyer claiming "They sent me a rock" and ebay/paypal will almost always sides with the buyer and issue a refund.

Edited March 3, 2019 by Stacey

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[pedaes]

3 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Selling through a dealer is another avenue but it's often the case that dealers have a 'waiting list' … thus the item is never listed by the dealer … and the price realised may not be the true market value. 

dunk

One dealer who is highly likely to be in this position is Lars Netopil in Wetzlar and well worth the cost of a phone call to ask him.http://lars-netopil.com/en/index.html