Leica Rigid Summicron-M 2.0/50mm Black Paint

[Ivar B]

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This extremely rare lens showed up for sale in Norway for a ridiculously low price. I called the owner (a pensioner) and let him know that he owned a jewel and his asking price was way below market value, so we agreed that he should send the lens to me and I will assist him in an international sale. I just received the lens from him and it is in really nice shape. According to the owner, an UV-filter has been in Place since day 1 so the glass is perfect, and as far as I can see there are no issues with haze or other problems. I checked eBay and I saw that some are listed (at very different prices) but none appears to have been sold lately. Does anyone have any idea of a market value now?

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[romanus53]

Very honest to help him this way but sometimes it is difficult to find a buyer on time in such a niche-market. I'd contact some auctioneer like Westlicht or Leitz Photographica Auction or ask some of the well-kown Dealers for a offer.
 

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[Ivar B]

45 minutes ago, romanus53 said:

Very honest to help him this way but sometimes it is difficult to find a buyer on time in such a niche-market. I'd contact some auctioneer like Westlicht or Leitz Photographica Auction or ask some of the well-kown Dealers for a offer.
 

Yes, I agree with you of curse. Auctions are expensive, though. Westlicht adds 20 % to the hammer price for the buyer and subtracts 20 % of the hammer price when the seller is paid, so transaction costs are in the region of 40 %. For me, it is very hard to see that they can add value to the transaction in such a way these fees can be justified. The first option therefore is to find an end user. 

 

[romanus53]

vor 31 Minuten schrieb Ivar B:

Yes, I agree with you of curse. Auctions are expensive, though. Westlicht adds 20 % to the hammer price for the buyer and subtracts 20 % of the hammer price when the seller is paid, so transaction costs are in the region of 40 %. For me, it is very hard to see that they can add value to the transaction in such a way these fees can be justified. The first option therefore is to find an end user. 

 

You are right but the problem is to find a buyer and get a reasonable price within a short period, you wouldn't try and wait longer than a year to sell. And all the offerings to what price ever you see right now don't attract any buyer. So calculate the lowest of that prices and ask some auctioneer or dealer and decide.

[pedaes]

59 minutes ago, Ivar B said:

Yes, I agree with you of curse. Auctions are expensive, though. Westlicht adds 20 % to the hammer price for the buyer and subtracts 20 % of the hammer price when the seller is paid, so transaction costs are in the region of 40 %. For me, it is very hard to see that they can add value to the transaction in such a way these fees can be justified. The first option therefore is to find an end user. 

 

Not sure the relevence of 40%, as buyer & seller will pay 20%  plus vat. Alternatively Red Dot charge 15% commission. You could e-mail Ivor with your photo and ask what he would list it at.

Have you checked the number to see if listed as black paint? If genuine I think you are correct about value and well done for making such an honourable gesture. Much better than posting in "My Leica steal"!

[Guest]

Surprised nobody suggested the classifieds section of our forum yet.

Interesting to see, that the owner from day 1 focused by holding the lock so much more than the scalloped focusing ring. 

Edited March 1, 2019 by tri

[luigi bertolotti]

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Great item !!!  Ivar, Collectblend is a good source to look for prices : http://collectiblend.com/Lenses/Leitz/50mm-f2-Summicron-(BM,-black).html 

I jumped in a WestLicht Auction in 2014 where no less than 3 of such items were sold, at very respectable prices (expecially an item single scale / Italic writing… probably is the rarest of the blackpainted Summicrons, apart the very few DR in black)

Edited March 1, 2019 by luigi bertolotti

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, tri said:

Surprised nobody suggested the classifieds section of our forum yet.

Interesting to see, that the owner from day 1 focused by holding the lock so much more than the scalloped focusing ring. 

Using Collectiblend guide, might be worth a punt at $6000 or so for the small fixed fee charged.

Agree about the brassing and questions all the knocks about current focus tabs wishing for old style ergonomics...

Edited March 1, 2019 by pedaes

[Ivar B]

30 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Great item !!!  Ivar, Collectblend is a good source to look for prices : http://collectiblend.com/Lenses/Leitz/50mm-f2-Summicron-(BM,-black).html 

I jumped in a WestLicht Auction in 2014 where no less than 3 of such items were sold, at very respectable prices (expecially an item single scale / Italic writing… probably is the rarest of the blackpainted Summicrons, apart the very few DR in black)

I had one question from a possible interested buyer how I can be 100 % sure that this is an original black paint and not one which was painted later. I am 99 % certain since this lens has been With the owner for decades, but do you have access to a possible archive listing which lenses were indeed black paint? I may ask Leica also. 

[pedaes]

13 minutes ago, Ivar B said:

I had one question from a possible interested buyer how I can be 100 % sure that this is an original black paint and not one which was painted later. I am 99 % certain since this lens has been With the owner for decades, but do you have access to a possible archive listing which lenses were indeed black paint? I may ask Leica also. 

If you give the Serial Number it can easily be checked, which will also give year of manufacture.

Edited March 1, 2019 by pedaes

[Guest]

Looked up ten different lenses in different price categories on collectiblend and noticed how dated the last deals are - at least for those ten examples. Come to think of it, I don’t understand their business model.

 

[luigi bertolotti]

23 minutes ago, tri said:

Looked up ten different lenses in different price categories on collectiblend and noticed how dated the last deals are - at least for those ten examples. Come to think of it, I don’t understand their business model.

 

Yes, I noticed that Collectblend categorization (for this item, but for others too) is not SO precise… indeed isn't an easy task (apart for REAL Leica experts… ) … but you can find a "pattern" searching with care the various auctions for really similar items… fact is that for those items prices are very fluctuating… I saw an item sold with original box… an added value… anyway, a blackpaint Summicron of this age IS a valued item, no doubt.. be its "right" price in the range of 2 to 2,5 KEuro or 2,5 to 3K or… well, matter of circumstances…  

Ivar… it is a double-scale and in the 1.9(8 ?)xx.xxx, right ? Lager says that this version ought to have the scalloped  focusing ring that is anodized, differently from the rest, which is painted… can you verify ?

 

Edited March 1, 2019 by luigi bertolotti

[Guest]

So it looks like top auction houses are worth their fees and it is worthwhile for their customers

Interesting events in Wetzlar this autumn.

[luigi bertolotti]

Some batches which could include this item (wiki - Puts) :

1831001	1838000	Summicron f= 5 cm 1:2 (S-chrom+M-DR-chrom+black)			1961			7000
1924001	1927000	Summicron f= 5 cm 1:2 (S+M-rigid.black+chrom)	1962			3000
1954001	1957000	Summicron f= 5 cm 1:2 (M+DR-chrom+M-rigid-black)		1962			3000

I think that exact number of blacks is unknown.

 

 

[Ivar B]

24 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Yes, I noticed that Collectblend categorization (for this item, but for others too) is not SO precise… indeed isn't an easy task (apart for REAL Leica experts… ) … but you can find a "pattern" searching with care the various auctions for really similar items… fact is that for those items prices are very fluctuating… I saw an item sold with original box… an added value… anyway, a blackpaint Summicron of this age IS a valued item, no doubt.. be its "right" price in the range of 2 to 2,5 KEuro or 2,5 to 3K or… well, matter of circumstances…  

Ivar… it is a double-scale and in the 1.9(8 ?)xx.xxx, right ? Lager says that this version ought to have the scalloped  focusing ring that is anodized, differently from the rest, which is painted… can you verify ?

 

Serial number is 1954538 and focusing ring is scalloped as you suggest:

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[Ivar B]

This is quite interesting - here is one for sale wich is Black Paint (looks identical with red lettering) and Serial number is only 62 apart:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LEICA-LEITZ-50MM-F2-SUMMICRON-BLACK-PAINT-11117-473/132742925947?hash=item1ee8184e7b:g:1SYAAOSwq75bcbHK:rk:4:pf:1&frcectupt=true

Looks like they are from the same series.

[Guest]

Your friend‘s is in better shape than the on eBay. Interesting info that the scalloped focusing ring is anodized in a painted lens: this makes that particular part more friction-resistant.

[pedaes]

The lens hood is worth a few €'s as well.

[Ivar B]

2 hours ago, tri said:

Surprised nobody suggested the classifieds section of our forum yet.

Interesting to see, that the owner from day 1 focused by holding the lock so much more than the scalloped focusing ring. 

This is an interesting comment, but as far as I have been able to dedect, the classified section is stone dead and irrelevant. It really is. There are just a handful of ads there, they cost a bit to place, and remain a short time. Why would anyone bother to use the forum classified when Facebook Leica Classifieds is free of charge, and there are many thousand subscribers so your ad is spread much more effectively?

 

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Hallo,

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[willeica]

Black paint items are generally 'over-valued' compared to their intrinsic worth, but that extra valuation is usually achieved at auction where the purchaser has the additional assurance of the auction house standing over the authenticity of the item. You may strike lucky with a private sale or eBay, but, if this were mine, I would be talking to Westlicht or Lars Netopil.

William