My Take on the APO-Summicron SL 35mm Asph

[thighslapper]

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7 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

This puts me, at least psychologically, at a difficult cross road. Give up, accept a clean break, close the M chapter, buying full into the L-A via a Pano with an entirely new, albeit smaller, constellation of optics. Or await the introduction of the SL2 as the best path to bridging my current M glass, with a few additions on the long and wide end, to the inevitable time a few years down the road when AF becomes a necessity and the M glass a memory.  If, OTOH, M lens support is not a serious priority for the next SL, that, much like an EVF M, becomes no more than an imaginary path forward.  So again, I wasn't asking for precision or specs, simply a statement, or a restatement perhaps, of intent and philosophy going forward. 

Don't forget that one of the main selling points banged on about incessantly when the SL was launched was full compatibility with virtually all the Leica back catalogue of lenses. In fact the name was a play on SLR ...... it does exactly the same but the R is missing. 

They will HAVE to use a custom or heavily modified sensor to cope with M lenses, unless they abandon the whole ethos of the SL as a Leica flagship FF camera ...... The requirements are not that difficult to work out from past errors ..... a thin enough cover glass to minimise smearing without incurring other issues, shallow pixel wells and variable microlenses to mitigate Italian Flag colour casts and excessive vignetting. Reducing pixel pitch by a third and light gathering by a half if they move to 48mpx makes it even more difficult if you want to preserve DR and low noise at high ISO. They cannot just stick an S1R or Q2 sensor in the camera and hope for the best, because the first thing people like me will do is stick a wide angle M lens on the camera and moan about the peripheral performance ...... 

Knowingly or not, Leica have dug themselves into a hole with M lens compatibility and it may take some novel technology to 'keep the faith' going forward. The Leica designed RYYB Huawei sensor shows they are thinking laterally to overcome issues rather than just improving what there is. The fact that Leica will announce the SL2 4 YEARS after the original SL suggests to me that they have been working on something complex and not just an incremental upgrade ...... 

Unfortunately the SL is an extremely robust and reliable camera with great image quality and a UI that would be hard to improve. That makes producing and SL2 that will tempt existing users to upgrade that much harder ....... so it's going to have to have something great going for it to open wallets .....

Edited May 21, 2019 by thighslapper

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[Chaemono]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb thighslapper:

Don't forget that one of the main selling points banged on about incessantly when the SL was launched was full compatibility with virtually all the Leica back catalogue of lenses. In fact the name was a play on SLR ...... it does exactly the same but the R is missing. 

They will HAVE to use a custom or heavily modified sensor to cope with M lenses, unless they abandon the whole ethos of the SL as a Leica flagship FF camera ...... The requirements are not that difficult to work out from past errors ..... a thin enough cover glass to minimise smearing without incurring other issues, shallow pixel wells and variable microlenses to mitigate Italian Flag colour casts and excessive vignetting. Reducing pixel pitch by a third and light gathering by a half if they move to 48mpx makes it even more difficult if you want to preserve DR and low noise at high ISO. They cannot just stick an S1R or Q2 sensor in the camera and hope for the best, because the first thing people like me will do is stick a wide angle M lens on the camera and moan about the peripheral performance ...... 

+1. That’s exactly it. That’s the issue they’re facing. So, let’s not be too harsh on them. The sense they convey is it’s doable, with a high resolution sensor. Let’s see. 😀

[jonoslack]

7 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

 

1 hour ago, thighslapper said:

Don't forget that one of the main selling points banged on about incessantly when the SL was launched was full compatibility with virtually all the Leica back catalogue of lenses. In fact the name was a play on SLR ...... it does exactly the same but the R is missing. 

They will HAVE to use a custom or heavily modified sensor to cope with M lenses, unless they abandon the whole ethos of the SL as a Leica flagship FF camera ...... The requirements are not that difficult to work out from past errors ..... a thin enough cover glass to minimise smearing without incurring other issues, shallow pixel wells and variable microlenses to mitigate Italian Flag colour casts and excessive vignetting. Reducing pixel pitch by a third and light gathering by a half if they move to 48mpx makes it even more difficult if you want to preserve DR and low noise at high ISO. They cannot just stick an S1R or Q2 sensor in the camera and hope for the best, because the first thing people like me will do is stick a wide angle M lens on the camera and moan about the peripheral performance ...... 

Knowingly or not, Leica have dug themselves into a hole with M lens compatibility and it may take some novel technology to 'keep the faith' going forward. The Leica designed RYYB Huawei sensor shows they are thinking laterally to overcome issues rather than just improving what there is. The fact that Leica will announce the SL2 4 YEARS after the original SL suggests to me that they have been working on something complex and not just an incremental upgrade ...... 

Unfortunately the SL is an extremely robust and reliable camera with great image quality and a UI that would be hard to improve. That makes producing and SL2 that will tempt existing users to upgrade that much harder ....... so it's going to have to have something great going for it to open wallets .....

 

8 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

+1. That’s exactly it. That’s the issue they’re facing. So, let’s not be too harsh on them. The sense they convey is it’s doable, with a high resolution sensor. Let’s see. 😀

You are both making an assumption that these requirements were not discussed with Panasonic when the S1 / Q2 sensor was developed.

That's a massive assumption to make - they've been working with Panasonic for years on this stuff, and it's pretty clear that the SL/Q sensor was a joint development.

It would have been really stupid!

On the other hand, Panasonic would certainly want to put a thicker coverglass on their sensor (less dust spots, easier filtration etc.). 

Of course, you could both be right, and when Panasonic and Leica developed a sensor together which was good for the S1r and the Q they hadn't envisaged an SL2. . .

but surely it doesn't sound credible

[Chaemono]

Jono, I agree. Some of the statements are contradictory logically, make no sense commercially. I initially thought the Q2 sensor modified will be the SL2 sensor, analogous to the Q/SL sensors. But there have been mixed signals since then, particularly on how bad the corner smearing is with an 18 mm M lens on the S1R. And how the challenge Leica faces is exactly what thighslapper stated above. Now, it could all be a head-fake and you could turn out to be right. But the sense I got last week was that support for legacy R and M lenses, and wide M lenses was of paramount importance with the SL2, the issues to achieve this weren’t trivial, and the S1R sensor just wouldn’t do it.

[tom0511]

which lenses are smearing with the s1r more than on the SL? Did I miss any threads about this?

 

 

[jonoslack]

4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Jono, I agree. Some of the statements are contradictory logically, make no sense commercially. I initially thought the Q2 sensor modified will be the SL2 sensor, analogous to the Q/SL sensors. But there have been mixed signals since then, particularly on how bad the corner smearing is with an 18 mm M lens on the S1R. And how the challenge Leica faces is exactly what thighslapper stated above. Now, it could all be a head-fake and you could turn out to be right. But the sense I got last week was that support for legacy R and M lenses, and wide M lenses was of paramount importance with the SL2, the issues to achieve this weren’t trivial, and the S1R sensor just wouldn’t do it.

HI There 

Well - you probably know more than I do (in fact I'm sure. you do as I know nothing!), but it would seem impossible that they would be changing the sensor at this point in the development.

[thighslapper]

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12 hours ago, jonoslack said:

 

You are both making an assumption that these requirements were not discussed with Panasonic when the S1 / Q2 sensor was developed.

That's a massive assumption to make - they've been working with Panasonic for years on this stuff, and it's pretty clear that the SL/Q sensor was a joint development.

It would have been really stupid!

On the other hand, Panasonic would certainly want to put a thicker coverglass on their sensor (less dust spots, easier filtration etc.). 

Of course, you could both be right, and when Panasonic and Leica developed a sensor together which was good for the S1r and the Q they hadn't envisaged an SL2. . .

but surely it doesn't sound credible

........ Leica have stated in interviews that the Panasonic S1R and S1 releases were a 'surprise' to them......  and Panasonic state they were working on both cameras for only 3 years before release and L alliance discussions began less than 2 years ago...... and that these were instigated by Panasonic who also discussed this independently with Sigma. They state that 'the alliance only concerns the mount and its communication system', nothing else and that 'all brands can use their own know-how to develop products'. Panasonic have co-operated with Leica on projects since 2001 and state 'we have been working with Leica and since 4 years in a technical partnership'. They state they were 'very involved in the development of Leica L mount and 'logically thought that if they were to enter the 24x36 segment, we had to do it with this mount, and Leica'. Presumably this relates to work/production on TL lenses and the dual AF system in the SL zooms etc.

As I have said before ...... there is no reason for the Q2 to use anything other than an 'off the shelf' sensor as I hardly believe Leica would be daft enough to use a difficult M lens optical design in the camera causing sensor complications. It may well be identical to the Panasonic S1R sensor ...... but that tells you nothing about the SL2. My interpretation is that Panasonic and Leica are following parallel paths because of the L Mount, CDAF and a history of lens design collaboration ..... but that's where the similarities end. I doubt if Panasonic have any more idea about the SL2 specifications than Leica had about the S1R and S1. Commercial co-operation can only go so far...... beyond which you are just asking to be taken advantage of. 

Panasonic came up with a FF mirrorless from concept to production in less than 3 years. Leica have had nearly 4 years to update an existing camera which in my book still ranks as one of the best cameras I have ever owned. If all they end up doing is sticking an S1R sensor in a 'less brutal' body then I for one will be mighty disappointed. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by thighslapper

[frame-it]

On 5/20/2019 at 11:40 PM, Chaemono said:

Now, I’m often being misled intentionally when I ask, but I tried to gauge by the reaction whether the Q2/S1R sensor for the SL2 was confirmed or not. I was told that because of the corner smearing with wide angle M lenses it won’t be the same sensor as in the S1R. It seems to be a serious issue and ray angle apparently isn’t the sole determinant but pixel size seems to matter, too, as I understand it. I asked if the SL2 would then have 24 MPx to reduce corner smearing. And I was given a different number than 47 MPx. It was actually higher. It could have been total baloney, though. On the corner smearing, they are working to resolve it. I would think you know more about the SL2 sensor at this point than I do. So, if you think 47 MPx, it might well be. I would still bet against it. 😀

perhaps it has an M-lens optimized 36MP sensor.. either way i hope it has a newer faster processor and those ASC version "looks" 😀

 

[Chaemono]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb jonoslack:

...as I know nothing!), but it would seem impossible that they would be changing the sensor at this point in the development.

Your statement implies that you were told at some point that it’s the 47 MPx sensor. So, you know or knew something. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Chaemono

[jonoslack]

6 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Your statement implies that you were told at some point that it’s the 47 MPx sensor. So, you know or knew something. 

Hi There 

Not really, I just assumed that as the Q sensor was the same as the SL sensor . . . and the Q2 sensor is the same as the S1r sensor it was fairly obvious that they were doing the same thing again. 

Maybe not?

[BernardC]

15 hours ago, thighslapper said:

........ Leica have stated in interviews that the Panasonic S1R and S1 releases were a 'surprise' to them......

I think that the details of the camera were unknown to them, but Leica knows what sensors/components are available from suppliers. They obviously knew about the 47MP sensor, since they use that sensor in the Q2.

[jplomley]

Back to the 35 APO, does anyone have any idea when they will ship out the next batch?

 

[Chaemono]

It’ll come bundled with the SL2. We’re right on topic. 😂

[AZN]

11 hours ago, jplomley said:

Back to the 35 APO, does anyone have any idea when they will ship out the next batch?

I'm also sorry to interrupt this wildy off-topic topic...

When I spoke to a Leica rep' in Melbourne a month ago, he said there should be an additional shipment towards the end of May.  Of course this is in Australia, so what happens elsewhere is anyone's guess.

[Steve7]

I received mine yesterday (I'm in the US).  Ordered at the end of Feb.  Very happy!

[Per P.]

I'm number two on the list with my dealer. At time of checking in - last week - they had so far seen exactly one lens come by and no idea when the next would show up.

[jplomley]

Checked at my dealer on Saturday, and exact same situation. Ten lenses ordered, one received. So not only is the lens delayed by well over a year, when it is finally released it is unavailable. Anyone want to roll the dice on when the APO 21/24/28 will be released? And then actually available? Although they say 2020, I'm going with 2022.

[grahamhoey]

Have you tried B & H in NYC. I have no connection to them but did go on their list Feb 28 and had the 35mm mid April. Not sure of their status now. 

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Hallo,

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[jplomley]

Cheers Graham, I much prefer to support my local dealer who is but a 45 minute drive away and has always offered outstanding support. 

[hillavoider]

the Sigma L mount Art lenses should be out later this year - i'm not waiting 2+ years for a lens ever again