M10-D: is “D” for dud dot diode?

[M9reno]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 hour ago, pedaes said:

If I read M9reno (the OP) correctly, I think he would today either have a replacement camera, or be waiting for one, if the matter had been handled with a degree of customer focus. There  is clearly a 'training need' in the Store, and as is often the case it is not the problem but how it is dealt with that affects attitudes. So many times we read that the wronged just want simple sincere apologies and the issue sorted, and the best organisations leave customer telling a positive tale of their experience with little mention of the original problem.

Correct and well put.  Things would have turned out differently had Leica’s follow-up after the return of the camera been reasonably prompt and different in tone.

Even so, I should add (as ramarren has twice raised this) that I can see why my decision to forego owning this camera after one fault might appear mercurial, and that I agree not every customer would have reacted by writing off the possibility of a replacement (though I was surprised that as of Monday afternoon the member of staff who answered my telephone call knew my case, and said the technicians had seen the fault, yet he was still unclear about whether and when a new camera would in fact be given).  The explanation for my reaction is this: we each have different thresholds of annoyance, and these thresholds even vary over time.  My threshold, I confess, is particularly low these days for the personal reasons I mentioned early in this thread, and I just felt that I didnt need the added grief.  It was thus straight to the off-ramp for me.

I also want to stress that I don’t expect to be treated with genuflections in any store (even in a boutique).  Certainly I don’t expect a member of staff to read my mind or my emotions. Just normal competent service will do. And by that standard the attitude of nonchalance, and especially the refusal to apologise for my inconvenience in having to deal with an out-of-the-box faulty camera, both over the telephone and in person when I was refunded on Tuesday, was galling to me.

Edited February 20, 2019 by M9reno

[jdlaing]

I am curious where you bought the camera.

[M9reno]

The new Leica Store Mayfair (London), near Oxford Street.  Basically Leica’s UK flagship store.

[ramarren]

Sounds like it's not Leica at all that's at fault, just crappy store personnel. 

I do business with two Leica dealers, one is there store in San Francisco and the other is a long-time dealer I've done business with for 30 years, located in Chicago. Both are kind enough to send me a note a week or so after I make a purchase to make sure that everything about the equipment I purchased, or the transaction of buying and selling gear, or whatever, went to my satisfaction and "Is there anything else I can do for you now?" That's just good business communication and sales relationship by a dealer, and has NOTHING to do with Leica Kamera GmBH. 

I don't do business with people who act like jerks. I don't complain about it either, I just vote with my wallet. 

G

[steveclem]

Nothing wrong with expressing your experience. Slaviesh fan boy devotion isn't helpful at all. Facts are facts, if it's  lemon 🍋....... 

[IkarusJohn]

Sure, but sometimes the reactions are a little ... precious.  We’ve seen a few threads like that.

I’m not beyond saying to a salesperson (it’s the shop we’re talking about here, right?) - “Let’s start this conversation again, this is a $8,000 camera, and it doesn’t work out of the box.  This is your problem as the vendor of the camera.  Legally, I have the right of a refund or a new camera.  Let’s start with an apology, as this is your responsibility and I am a long term Leica user, and then talk about how quickly you can get me a new camera.  The alternative is, I take the refund, I walk out of here, and you never see me again.”

I’ve never had to do this, but I guess it is a subtext.  When I bought my SL, the local dealer personally delivered the camera to my Chambers.  When it malfunctioned, I took the camera in and they gave me their only demo camera to use while they waited for a replacement from Germany.  It took a month or so (Germany is a long way away from here), and there was no suggestion I return their demo until my new camera had arrived.

I have had a few issues with Leica gear over the years, and being polite and direct has always worked (with one exception where Leica had to be persuaded that they had made an error of judgment).  I see little point in using this forum for pursuing such issues (except in extreme situations).  Leica doesn’t monitor this forum that closely - many is the time I’ve emailed Leica to draw their attention to unhappy customers, usually with good results.

Bashing Leica’s reputation here I find less satisfactory.  It’s not things going wrong that is the issue - it’s how those issues are resolved.  Leica has been exemplary, in my experience.

[pedaes]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

8 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

 

Bashing Leica’s reputation here I find less satisfactory.  It’s not things going wrong that is the issue - it’s how those issues are resolved.  Leica has been exemplary, in my experience.

Agree with most of what you say, but who is 'Leica'?

If it is a Leica owned and managed store, is this not Leica? 

[IkarusJohn]

6 minutes ago, pedaes said:

Agree with most of what you say, but who is 'Leica'?

If it is a Leica owned and managed store, is this not Leica? 

Sure.

[willeica]

3 hours ago, pico said:

Let's span the gap and add the 0 Series to that

I'll loan you my one.

William

PS The nearest I can get in terms of 'real cameras' are 2 1926 I Model As.

 

[willeica]

1 hour ago, ramarren said:

Sounds like it's not Leica at all that's at fault, just crappy store personnel. 

I do business with two Leica dealers, one is there store in San Francisco and the other is a long-time dealer I've done business with for 30 years, located in Chicago. Both are kind enough to send me a note a week or so after I make a purchase to make sure that everything about the equipment I purchased, or the transaction of buying and selling gear, or whatever, went to my satisfaction and "Is there anything else I can do for you now?" That's just good business communication and sales relationship by a dealer, and has NOTHING to do with Leica Kamera GmBH. 

I don't do business with people who act like jerks. I don't complain about it either, I just vote with my wallet. 

 

This is a store owned and managed by Leica AG's UK organisation. It is Leica that is 100% at fault on both counts, QC and CS. That is why the company needs to know about the flaws in its manufacturing and distribution chain.

William

[scott kirkpatrick]

12 hours ago, ramarren said:

I don't do business with people who act like jerks. I don't complain about it either, I just vote with my wallet. 

G

Good philosophy, but hard to live with in practice.  Take airlines.  There were those on which I would never fly again, but eventually none were left, and I had to start over...

Edited February 21, 2019 by scott kirkpatrick

[scott kirkpatrick]

11 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

....

  When I bought my SL, the local dealer personally delivered the camera to my Chambers.  

Perhaps skill in persuasion, beyond most of the rest of us, is one of your Professional Powers.

[xiaubauu2009]

On 2/21/2019 at 1:59 AM, ramarren said:

Sounds like it's not Leica at all that's at fault, just crappy store personnel. 

I do business with two Leica dealers, one is there store in San Francisco and the other is a long-time dealer I've done business with for 30 years, located in Chicago. Both are kind enough to send me a note a week or so after I make a purchase to make sure that everything about the equipment I purchased, or the transaction of buying and selling gear, or whatever, went to my satisfaction and "Is there anything else I can do for you now?" That's just good business communication and sales relationship by a dealer, and has NOTHING to do with Leica Kamera GmBH. 

 I don't do business with people who act like jerks. I don't complain about it either, I just vote with my wallet. 

G

Well, I do get jerks even working in Leica Germany, all you have to do is to complain to their supervisor to get it fixed.... you are right that one should waste one's energy at an appropriate direction. But unlike you, I feel most of the fault of this brand's camera is at Leica's fault cause I have 3 out of 6 leica M arrived with misaligned RF (Film MP, M246, M10D), not all of them get appropriate after sales fix. I have 1 Leica S out of 3 S (s006) that arrive new with bad pixel that cannot be fixed by mere mapping that require going back to Germany, ultimately they just replace a new one for me... and about 4 out of 6 Leica S lens that has AF motor before they acknowledge their problem with AF motor module issue where most of dealer here in China already red flag this issue for close to a year...

The failure rate is incredible. But people still want to go into this brand cause of the 'legend' or joy it gives you when it works... But I can sympathize with people having upset feelings towards this company cause by being unreliable. It bound to happen.

[earleygallery]

Hmm interesting thread.

There are a few issues here. Firstly I don't think we should 'airbrush' the Leica experience by censoring any negative posts. In fact the negative feedback from users should be the most valuable information for any company, so that they can address problems and keep customers.

AFAIK Leica still include a little hand signed quality control card with each product they sell. There have been many examples over the years of products with such sign off being shipped with glaringly obvious faults - like the lenses sent out with the aperture rings the wrong way round! How can that happen and not be noticed during a hand inspection and sign off? I can only assume those cards are signed in batches and just slipped in the boxes, with no actual inspection being carried out. It looks like a nice touch, but it's meaningless.

The assistant at the Leica store obviously didn't know consumer law or (or rather and) wasn't authorised to give refunds/replacements, so gave some cock and bull story to the OP about having to refer to 'technicians'. Personally I would have left with the camera and returned when there was someone with authority in the store, but ultimately the OP has his refund so no issue with the outcome, but there's a training issue for Leica to address at the stores.

Ultimately, if the camera had been fine out of the box, or if the Leica store had immediately replaced it for another one, the OP would still have his camera and Leica would have made a sale. OK one less sale isn't going to matter but for a brand that sells 'excellence' they really need to address these points.