'Hopelist' for SL2

[Agent M10]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

8 hours ago, Chaemono said:

It will be interesting to see how Leica will justify the significant price premium of the SL2 over the S1R. 24 MPx and no IBIS and exactly five people will buy it. After  all, there is the S1 with 24 MPx at $2,500. Leica SL2 will be about three times that. 

According to Panasonic’s specs, the S1 will be the higher seller. 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Chaemono]

I can’t read that. It could say 150K as far as I’m concerned. Nikon makes 20K Z7s per month. 

https://www.google.de/amp/s/nikonrumors.com/2018/08/24/sendai-factory-media-tour-qa-currently-nikon-makes-20k-z7-mirrorless-cameras-per-month.aspx/amp/

[Agent M10]

Personally, I'd like to see a phi grid or fibonacci ratio. Shouldn't be too hard to implement.

[Bob Andersson]

Is the 47MP sensor in the Q 2 in the queue for the SL 2 too? 😀

The high ISO performance in Matt Granger's video review of the Q 2 (here) at 100% crops, rather than matched FoV, doesn't enthrall but I guess it's early days to make a judgement.

[Guest]

I suspect it's a near certainty the SL2 will be 47 as well. A shame for me, I'd much prefer 36, which is my sweet spot for resolution, dynamic range, and noise.

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Bob Andersson:

Is the 47MP sensor in the Q 2 in the queue for the SL 2 too? 😀

The high ISO performance in Matt Granger's video review of the Q 2 (here) at 100% crops, rather than matched FoV, doesn't enthrall but I guess it's early days to make a judgement.

Panasonic and Leica are going with a 47 MPx non-BSI sensor. First reaction when I read this was ‘oh my,’ it’s got to produce more noise than the α7R III at higher ISO. Let’s reserve judgement until we see how the Leica/Panasonic sensor performs at different ISO ranges in terms of DR vs. the α7R III and the Z7 (to be tested with the same lens 😀). They must have good reasons for using it, especially since it’s likely that TowerJazz Panasonic JV semicon foundry in Japan or TowerJazz make the Nikon D850/Z7 BSI sensor. 

[frinothajino]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

On 2/17/2019 at 7:38 AM, BernardC said:

I hope that Leica doesn't give-in to every request and make the SL into an over-complicated beast. "It's a piano, and a desk lamp, and it can knead dough!"

I hope they don't change the body too much. If they do change it, they should make it use the same battery as the S.

I hope that they choose to be serious about video. The SL was first with 10-bit log external video, but then they never supported their "L-Log" format with LUTs or (ideally) ACES IDTs. Essentially, they gave us the best-performing video DSLR (at the time), and then made it unusable, for anything but one-offs, because of their lack of support. The flip-side of that wish is that, if they don't want to do video right, they shouldn't do it at all.Don't leave your customers waiting for the magical firmware update that will make the camera do what it claimed to at launch (aka: the Sony strategy).

Favour responsiveness over megapixels. The SL was the first mirrorless camera that's fast enough to be usable. Let's keep it that way, and make it better. The shutter delay should be as quick as an M, and the viewfinder should be as close to real-time as technology allows. It's 2019, anyone who really wants a high-megapixel (but sluggish) mirrorless camera will buy it from Hasselblad or Fuji.

 

The rest should go without saying: a 4-years newer sensor, faster card interface, bigger buffer, faster image review.

 

Yes, they should ditch video completely if they are not willing to address the terrible sensor noise pattern that reveals itself when shooting "L-Log". For me, the rolling shutter is unacceptable in any resolution modes above 1920x1080, even then motion is just not right. Not for using video seriously. The color of the footage couldn't get much better, if only it could be used to its full potential. If they want to be serious about video, recording RAW cinemaDNGs externally from a super 35 crop of the sensor with an additional 4:3 mode would be the ticket. Wouldn't expect a data rate from the full frame to be possible for full sensor cinemaDNG. They could then forget about all the log and compression nonsense, keep it simple and serious. CinemaDNG is future proof, Resolve will still support it even though they are dropping it from the new cameras in favor of a not really RAW "Blackmagic RAW". That would be "serious", ability to film with M glass on a sensor that can handle it properly, the amazing SL glass, anamorphics and pretty much everything out there. Would make the new SL a real game changing workhorse and justify the price for doing so.

As a stills camera it's a dream to use, just add optional LENR and make it able interface with libgphoto2 and ditch the proprietary shutter release cable to allow it to be used as a tool for professional time-lapse work. Looks like it might share the Q2 sensor, hope that doesn't make the image worse at sensitivities of 1600-3200 than it currently is. I stay away from going above 1600 already, never over 3200. The body size is perfect already. No need for IBIS (not opposed, would be "handy"), just a global shutter needed. No tilt screen needed, tilt-able EVF would be so much more useful. Does anybody use the screen for anything other than settings and image review? I don't. The EVF is amazing, tilt it! This is a lot to ask I know.. The price would justify it. A true game changer.

[Guest]

I guess the argument would be that you (like me) don't use the screen for shooting, partly because it doesn't have a tilt function. Certainly I would use it more on a tripod if it did have. But it's certainly not critical, and if it takes away from the clean design of the camera (and adds weight and/or potential unreliability), I probably wouldn't want it regardless.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Guest

[IkarusJohn]

On a tripod I use the Fotos App

[IkarusJohn]

On 3/8/2019 at 6:32 AM, Chaemono said:

Panasonic and Leica are going with a 47 MPx non-BSI sensor. First reaction when I read this was ‘oh my,’ it’s got to produce more noise than the α7R III at higher ISO. Let’s reserve judgement until we see how the Leica/Panasonic sensor performs at different ISO ranges in terms of DR vs. the α7R III and the Z7 (to be tested with the same lens 😀). They must have good reasons for using it, especially since it’s likely that TowerJazz Panasonic JV semicon foundry in Japan or TowerJazz make the Nikon D850/Z7 BSI sensor. 

Source?  The technical descriptions are beyond me, and I accept that Leica is reticent about where it sources its sensors (not sure why, frankly), but how much of this is speculation?

We read here a lot at the moment that the SL2 will get the Q2’s (Sony?) 47 MP sensor. I guess because both are full frame and the Q, SL and M all have 24MP sensors. But Leica has consistently said they are all different. 

I can’t imagine that a sensor used in a fixed lens camera (each optimised for the other) would be any use in a camera taking legacy and new M lenses and state of the art L lenses. It makes no sense to me. I’d be interested to know what impact the new 64 MP S sensor will have on its full frame brethren. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by IkarusJohn

[sblitz]

45 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Source?  The technical descriptions are beyond me, and I accept that Leica is reticent about where it sources its sensors (not sure why, frankly), but how much of this is speculation?

We read here a lot at the moment that the SL2 will get the Q2’s (Sony?) 47 MP sensor. I guess because both are full frame and the Q, SL and M all have 24MP sensors. But Leica has consistently said they are all different. 

I can’t imagine that a sensor used in a fixed lens camera (each optimised for the other) would be any use in a camera taking legacy and new M lenses and state of the art L lenses. It makes no sense to me. I’d be interested to know what impact the new 64 MP S sensor will have on its full frame brethren. 

My understanding was that the SL and Q share the same sensor, something I was told. Now, different is a matter of semantics in this arena. Obviously a sensor fine-tuned for a 28mm fixed mount lens will be somewhat different than one on an SL. They can be the same sensor with differences (perhaps in the software?) to allow for the lenses being placed in front of it. So, my guess is that S2 will be a Q2 with interchangeable lenses much like the SL is to the Q. 

[IkarusJohn]

Not sure that the Q does share the same sensor as the SL (we all get told different things) - why would it be when the challenges of a system camera are so much different and more complex than a fixed lens?   Register differences with SL and M lenses, microwhatsits etc ...  You may be right ...

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, frinothajino said:

Yes, they should ditch video completely if they are not willing to address the terrible sensor noise pattern that reveals itself when shooting "L-Log".

I think Leica should have made it more clear that L-Log shouldn't be used together with 8-bit. They also should have supported it with LUTs and/or ACES IDTs.

The best solution would be for Leica to use Panasonic's professional raw and log formats. That would put the camera within a vibrant ecosystem, and make it compatible with all editing and colour-grading software.

[Chaemono]

vor einer Stunde schrieb IkarusJohn:

Source?  

A simple Google search would do, but here we go. https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-s1-s1r-review-in-progress/2. Sounds to me like they have this information from Panasonic. The folks at DPR don't make up specs and if they were, the manufacturers would have them modify the article. So, let's agree, it's a non-BSI sensor.

"The S1 and S1R use what Panasonic claims are newly designed full-frame sensors, with resolutions of 24.2 and 47.3 Megapixels, respectively. The S1R's sensor in particular has been designed to maximize the signal-to-noise ratio by using aspherical microlenses, a 'waveguide' to direct light into the pixel and deep photodiodes to more efficiently capture light. This sets it apart from the BSI approach (that puts the photosensitive area nearer the chip surface) used in the high-res cameras from Sony and Nikon."

vor einer Stunde schrieb IkarusJohn:

The technical descriptions are beyond me, and I accept that Leica is reticent about where it sources its sensors (not sure why, frankly), but how much of this is speculation?

S1R and Q2 have 46.7 MPx sensors exactly the same size, 8368 x 5584. Leica and Panasonic announced an alliance last year. I'd say it's fair to assume they source the same sensor. Leica purchasing benefits from economies of scale. It makes business sense (something often forgotten in our wishful thinking). Check on that point IMO.

vor einer Stunde schrieb IkarusJohn:

I can’t imagine that a sensor used in a fixed lens camera (each optimised for the other) would be any use in a camera taking legacy and new M lenses and state of the art L lenses. It makes no sense to me. I’d be interested to know what impact the new 64 MP S sensor will have on its full frame brethren. 

The SL sensor is the Q sensor tweaked. It was confirmed in an interview by Andreas Juergensen with Stefan Daniel in October 2015 here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-aktuell/2015/10/leica-sl-interview-stefan-daniel/ if I remember correctly. The video does not seem to work, but you might want to ask Andreas. And I conclude, based on inductive reasoning (that's what I do for a living), that the SL2 sensor will be the one used in the Q2, modified. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Chaemono

[BernardC]

3 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not sure that the Q does share the same sensor as the SL (we all get told different things) - why would it be when the challenges of a system camera are so much different and more complex than a fixed lens?   Register differences with SL and M lenses, microwhatsits etc ...  You may be right ...

I don't think they share the same sensor, but they all seem to share the same sensor architecture, and the sensors seem to come from the same source. Web sites that measure sensor performance indicate that each subsequent sensor improves a little bit on the previous one, in terms of noise and low-light performance.

The same thing happens with Canon and Sony sensors. There's a basic architecture, which gets tweaked for different cameras, and improves over time.

As far as the similarities to Panasonic's sensors are concerned, we know that Leica has strong opinions about colour response (AKA "colour science"), and that they have requirements for supporting legacy lenses that Panasonic doesn't have.

[IkarusJohn]

23 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

... I'd say it's fair to assume they source the same sensor. Leica purchasing benefits from economies of scale. It makes business sense (something often forgotten in our wishful thinking). Check on that point IMO.

... based on inductive reasoning (that's what I do for a living), that the SL2 sensor will be the one used in the Q2, modified. 

As I thought.  I test assumptions for a living, I guess.

For me, I’ll just wait for the Leica announcement and go ohh, ahh.  Mickey Mouse could make the sensor, for all the difference it makes to me.  I just find confident assertions of rumour and supposition as fact unhelpful.  As I recall, you were absolutley confident that the SL EVF was going into the CL - it wasn’t.  Not a big issue, but sifting supposition from fact is interesting in an odd way.

[Chaemono]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb IkarusJohn:

As I thought.  I test assumptions for a living, I guess.

For me, I’ll just wait for the Leica announcement and go ohh, ahh.  Mickey Mouse could make the sensor, for all the difference it makes to me.  I just find confident assertions of rumour and supposition as fact unhelpful.  As I recall, you were absolutley confident that the SL EVF was going into the CL - it wasn’t.

Just don’t cry. 

[IkarusJohn]

😂

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Chaemono]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb BernardC:

I don't think they share the same sensor, but they all seem to share the same sensor architecture,..

A three minute preview of the video interview by Andreas with Stefan Daniel on the SL now works. They decided to put the video behind a paywall. Even if one doesn't understand German, one can clearly hear Stefan Daniel mention "pixel design" and "Q" starting at 2:50 here: https://www.fototv.de/tutorial/fototvnews-die-neue-leica-sl-als-wurdiger-nachfolger  "the pixel design or the basis of the sensor is the same as in the Q. However it was tweaked for..." Then the three minutes are over. 😀 

 

 

[Chaemono]

@helged, I remember what followed was "...it was tweaked for use with M lenses." Andreas could tell us but this is not the business model, I guess. Fair enough. In the age of free media and fake news, quality content and well researched journalism should have a price.