Leica is blowing my mind

[Flyer]

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and I bet I am blowing yours😂

I need help and my doctor doesn't know what to advise 😂😂😂😂😂.

I really want to get into the Leica world but I am not making a purchase decision easy.

I almost pulled the trigger on an M10 but bailed because I was unsure if I would like the rangefinder experience. My main photography is Wildlife and nature and a bit of Landscape but at 58yr my days of getting up at 4am for a sunrise are well behind me. So it's mainly Travel and urban stuff I would use this camera for.   (see my flikr below)

So my dilemma is I have a budget of only 7k and was looking at the M10 or SL with a 35mm.

The SL has lots of features I have been used to in the DSLR/Mirrorless world, but it seams a shame to use only manual focus lenses and lose out on the AF capabilities and IS etc. I know the solution is the 24-90 but thats just far too big and heavy, so just on that bases should I rule the SL out?  I am NOT looking for this to cover Wildlife/BIF I have a Nikon D5 and 200-500 for that.

The M10 looks to be the most suItable, but I guess I would need the Vioflex during the transition to the rangefinder process?

I know you can adapt lenses via an EOS adaptor but "do you really put Canon glass on a Leica"!!!?

If I was to design the perfect camera for "me" it would be a QP with changeable lenses, so I need to think what is nearest to that?

In the world on Leica 7k is peanuts, so it would probably be one on the following.

SL with 35mm 2.5 Summarit  (Body £4000 + Lens £1600) + EOS adaptor and a suItable walkabout zoom lens.

M10 with Voightlander 35mm (Body £5300 + Lens £700) + A 50mm

The Q is out because I don't think I can live with just a 28mm!

Also posted on SL thread.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/eazypix/

[lucerne]

I'm puzzled as to why you are drifting towards more and more expensive (and much larger) kit when it is clear to you that owning Leica will be expensive whatever you choose.  It seems that for some reason you are convinced that rangefinder techniques are very advanced.  They aren't.  I switched overnight from Canon to Leica M9. (cost £3200 from a main UK dealer) and I never looked back.   I added a Leica Q and was very disappointed when I found that the automation partially removed my involvement in the capture operations. I had sleepless nights worrying about the ability of the Q to survive after an experience in Egypt that required two visits to my dealer for cleaning.   Anyway, who wants to be out all day and limited to 28mm.    I've sold the Q and despite its undoubtedly great IQ I found the shooting experience boring and very unsatisfying.  . I progressed to an M240 which was a few millimetres larger than the M9.   I didn't enjoy holding it and wasn't interested in video.   I now have an M10 which I love.  I have taken my rangefinders all over the world and have thousands of images.  I almost treat them like a point and shoot because they are so easy to use!  I purchased the visoflex viewfinder only to support framing when using the fabulous 21mm Super Elmar on architectural subjects.    I was also considering doing some macro photography.

The M10 is a great size and very manageable. Easy to navigate menu which is almost redundant.   It accepts every Leica M lens and many non Leica lenses including Zeiss ZM types priced from around £700.  The current second hand price for an M10 from an authorised dealer is way under £5000.  I recently purchased a spotless secondhand 35 Summicron while in Hong Kong.   It hasn't been off the camera since last November.  The results Im getting are visibly better than my Zeiss even when viewed on my iPhone.  I also have an 50mm Lux and 50mm Chron.   Hardly used now.    My other useful and low cost lens is a 75 2.5.    Its very sharp.

Are you tending towards getting a Leica which is as capable as your Nikon and might even feel like the Nikon to shoot.  That would be an expensive mistake. Not because there's anything bad about it, but duplicating the Nikon is a waste of money, and from that day onward you will be committed to spend big bucks for every extra lens and it won't be convenient for carrying around all day.

What Ive learned in the past 5 years is to get the item that you really want and priced within your budget.  Making interim purchases and having to trade out is an expensive route.   Only regret is not keeping the Leica M9-P as a second body.

Get the M10.  No-one regrets that decision. 

IMHO.

Edited January 25, 2019 by lucerne

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[Flyer]

Cheers Gordon for the positive guidance. I am looking for an engaging camera that allows "me" to get the shot and with only a little help from the camera. I can get that from a Fuji for £1000 but with retiring I wanted something that feels special. I see my Nikon as a totally different beast, its a tool to capture fast moving subjects and thats its purpose. Whichever Leica will be the one thats fun to shoot with and allows my photography to be more considered when needed. I have just retired and my wife retires (57) in March so we will hopefully be traveling and thats my main purpose of this camera.  I guess having used DSLR's and mirrorless for the past 40 years and never shot a Rangefinder, thats where my trepidation comes from.

[lucerne]

24 minutes ago, Flyer said:

Cheers Gordon for the positive guidance. I am looking for an engaging camera that allows "me" to get the shot and with only a little help from the camera. I can get that from a Fuji for £1000 but with retiring I wanted something that feels special. I see my Nikon as a totally different beast, its a tool to capture fast moving subjects and thats its purpose. Whichever Leica will be the one thats fun to shoot with and allows my photography to be more considered when needed. I have just retired and my wife retires (57) in March so we will hopefully be traveling and thats my main purpose of this camera.  I guess having used DSLR's and mirrorless for the past 40 years and never shot a Rangefinder, thats where my trepidation comes from.

I understand.

I retired at 65 (6 years ago) and used a tax free cash portion of my small pension fund to buy my M9-P plus too many lenses.  Never used them. 2-3 lenses are adequate. for most work with an M.  They are beautifully small, light and easy to pack. Despite the weight of the M10, Weight of kit is my number one consideration while walking around hot cities.    21mm and 35mm are my most used.   50mm and 75mm when I can't get close.

Added Extra:   I should point out that Leica lenses bring certain character to images.  In particular, versions of each focal length will differ in their rendering.  Older lenses of the same focal length will often cost more (secondhand) for that reason.  Currently i shoot with modern versions but I do recognise why photographers seek out and own various versions.  

 

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by lucerne

[Stein K S]

Its set then Flyer. You ask all the right thoughts & questions and Lucerne provide all the right answers. The M seems to be for You! Go and get the M10 now! Enjoy!

PS: I am also turning 58 this year... and the M seems to become the more and more right companion for the years to come!

 

[oka]

I switched from Canon and it took about year to get comfortable with RF to work with it professionally. The first 3 months was really struggle but when you get over it, RF focusing will become much easier. Also if you don't use any larger aperture than 2, with 35mm RF focusing can be quite easy.

[jmahto]

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I will add my 2 cents about focusing. It is EASY and accurate and satisfying. My 10 year old kid shot perfectly focused pic when he handled the camera for the first time. My friends get surprised how easy it is once they have given verbal instruction (and not to cover the RF window with finger)

RF focusing is only frustrating if

- if you have eye sight issues

- RF is not aligned (should not be an issue if you buy from reputable places)

- if you are shooting only at 1.4 or 90mm or 135mm (DOF makes the previous two points more important). 

But start with 35 f2 lens (or wider) and simply enjoy the experience. 

BTW, I came to Leica M9 from 7 years of Canon AF experience and never looked back. 

Edit: Don’t make the mistake of using EVF as a crutch for focusing. You will be disappointed in no time. The use of EVF is for better framing of wides, occasional use of tele lenses and non RF coupled legacy lenses and macro. It is not a substitute for RF focusing which is vastly superior to any focusing mechanism invented ever.

Edited January 25, 2019 by jmahto

[adan]

Flyer -

You say you have used SLRs for 40 years. That means you must have used them before autofocus arrived (30 years ago, ±). Did you ever have a Nikon (or other) manual-focus film SLR with the split-image device in the focus screen? FM/FA/FE, F1/2/3, Nikkormat? It was Nikon's "default focusing screen" until AF came along (and even then, one could install them in the top-end F4/F5).

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Because for the most part, the Leica rangefinder is not much different in use. You point the split-image "zone" in the center at a vertical line in your subject, and turn the lens focus ring until the top and bottom halves line up, and then you are focused on that line. It is in the center, so to focus off-center, you "focus and recompose."

In fact, the split-image SLR screens were invented exactly to "replicate" the rangefinder focusing operation, as photographers began transitioning from rangefinder cameras to SLRs in the 1960s. It felt "familiar and easy." I loved mine in Canons and Nikons from 1970 until they "went away" with AF, and I switched to Leicas mostly to get the split-image focusing back in 2001.

 

[lucerne]

Thanks Adan.  It's true, and that really is what we do when focusing a rangefinder.  The M10 has made the operation even easier..  I hardly notice myself bringing the split image into one.  Thanks for reminding me.  😁

Flyer should also realise that the focusing operation on the Leica is always performed "as if" the lens is wide open.  No dimming of the viewfinder image due to stopping down.  

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by lucerne

[pedaes]

Agree totally with Adan. Used Canon A1/AE-1 's in 70's and 80's and then autofocus 1D's. Moving to Leica rangefinder in the 2010's was like coming home! 

[cp995]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Stein K S:

Its set then Flyer. You ask all the right thoughts & questions and Lucerne provide all the right answers. The M seems to be for You! Go and get the M10 now! Enjoy!

PS: I am also turning 58 this year... and the M seems to become the more and more right companion for the years to come!

Same with me, with 60 years I had a chance (money) to buy my M10; still had some lenses before for my DSLMs (Fuji, Sony)
RF was always a dream for me and I checked it with filmcameras as a confirmation.
Now,  after two years using the M10, I can say that the décsion was right!
I really enjoy the RF and I think that even my pictures are getting better ...

Edited January 25, 2019 by cp995

[Mr Fjeld]

1 hour ago, adan said:

Flyer -

You say you have used SLRs for 40 years. That means you must have used them before autofocus arrived (30 years ago, ±). Did you ever have a Nikon (or other) manual-focus film SLR with the split-image device in the focus screen? FM/FA/FE, F1/2/3, Nikkormat? It was Nikon's "default focusing screen" until AF came along (and even then, one could install them in the top-end F4/F5).

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Because for the most part, the Leica rangefinder is not much different in use. You point the split-image "zone" in the center at a vertical line in your subject, and turn the lens focus ring until the top and bottom halves line up, and then you are focused on that line. It is in the center, so to focus off-center, you "focus and recompose."

In fact, the split-image SLR screens were invented exactly to "replicate" the rangefinder focusing operation, as photographers began transitioning from rangefinder cameras to SLRs in the 1960s. It felt "familiar and easy." I loved mine in Canons and Nikons from 1970 until they "went away" with AF, and I switched to Leicas mostly to get the split-image focusing back in 2001.

 

Exactly! I love my Nikkormat FTN; the manual focus and exposure, the solidity and yes - I still love it. My only other camera was a Nikon D70S which actually still work, but I never enjoyed it as much. My M246 is as enjoyable as the Nikkormat  but with much better lenses.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Mr Fjeld

[jmahto]

Good comparison with split screen. In Leica RF it is even more accurate due to wider RF base (split screen in old SLRs work off the width of your lens as RF base which is much smaller). 

If budget is limited then just get an used M9 (with updated sensor) and used Ziess. 30 days return policy should give you enough time. Even if you keep longer, you can always sell it back with little to no loss. I still miss my M9.

I hope you are not high ISO junky. That is another way to get disappointed with Leica sensor (compared to contemporary Sonicon). 

Edited January 25, 2019 by jmahto

[PCPix]

This entire post is very emotive to me! I started with Pentax MXs, (massive bright split image finder) then sold that kit for a pair of M2's and a few lenses, which I loved and used professionally for quite a while, then sold all that lot to get into the Canon EOS autofocus system in the early 90s (EOS 10s, then 5s then 1s) and stuck with the system ever since. The first thing I do with any new 1 body is put a split screen into it.... My reasoning in the early 90s was that the Canon lenses may not quite be up to Leica's standards - but they were almost always in focus and an in focus shot with a Canon is certainly better than a missed (manual) focus Leica shot when you are on commission!

In addition to this boring SLR ramble - and at some point recognising the errors in my ways - I have hankered after an M pretty much since selling my M2s. Since the advent of the digital era I have patiently watched how Leica developed the M. When I first saw the M10 I knew the time had come and went out to get one.

To 'Flyer' - I wouldn't really look at the SL as it's too much like everything else (granted it has very nice Leica design) - but the M stands alone: nobody else is doing anything like it and is the closest digital camera to it's original film camera roots (imagine a digital Nikon F2, Pentax LX or Olympus OM2 - none of them have the balls 😉

If you want simplicity, pared back photographer-driven photography - look no further. It's an M10 and a 35mm (Summicron might push you just a little over budget - but it is the answer!)

For wildlife however, you might still want to be looking at an EOS1DXII (or Nikon equivalent) and a 600 f/4... 😉

Let us know what you do finally decide - ultimately the camera you choose should be the one that gives you the most pleasure.

[mujk]

Go for the M10 and a used 35 Summicron ASPH, if you can find one for a reasonable price. You can save a lot by buying M lenses used and usually they are as good as new.

But don't sell all of your DSLR gear, unless you have to. You will probably need it for some types of photography, although you will soon find out that your Leica M will be the camera you use the most. At least for me, my Canon EOS gear really sees very little travelling anymore (Svalbard was one exception), while my M9 and since a year ago my M10 is the one I take with me when travelling. Growing older (will turn 60 later this year) I really appreciate the small size and low weight of the M system, even if I usually take too many lenses with me and end up using only one or two.

Funnily enough, when I was in my early teens I really despised using my father's Konica rangefinder. The only camera type I thought was worth using was an SLR, and I eventually got one. And then, in 2005, after going fully digital with a DSLR, I purchased my first film Leica, an M6TTL. Going back to a rangefinder and coupled manual exposure metering was like coming home after a long journey. Well, maybe I'm getting old...

[robert blu]

+1 what Adan says. I didn't think about this but in fact when I do not use my M10 and I prefer to  shoot film or I use the M7 or the old Nikon FM2T and I have to say the focusing experience is the same!

From what I read here Flyer you should go with the M10 and a 35mm lens, sometimes I keep that lens on my camera for months with feeling the need to change it! Go simple, go easy 😊

robert

[JDFlood]

I come from the SLR / DSLR and mirrorless background about a year and a half ago. I use all my cameras. I enjoy the M10 the most. Probably the most valuable attribute to me is that it is manual focus only... I was very hesitant in the beginning because it did not have autofocus. However, in retrospect, I am really happy that it is. It has made my photography much better. Most of the auto functions on contemporary cameras are a blessing and a curse. If you are a serious amateur you should be crafting your photos: carefully controlling each aspect of the photo... the depth of field, exposure, shutter speed, etc. While today's cameras allow you to work on composition... they frequently "safely" craft the details... they are computer driven. The Leica M10 is made for people that are serious about taking extraordinary photos, giving them simple and direct control of the camera... and to some extent require it. The RF focus is extremely accurate although can take a little getting used to. I think it took me about 10 minutes, but some folks struggle a little. If the subject has lots of fine details, then it can be challenging to identify unique markings to line up... experience makes it easier. The Leica M10 / Leica lenses have a unique character to them that to me is very appealing. I have described this as a higher granularity in shading in the mid to deep tones, making for more saturated and artistic look to the photographs.  I love my M10. I use three lenses mostly, 28mm 35mm and 50mm... well and my 90mm f4 Summaron. Don't think that small high f stop lenses are poor performers. I like my f4 and f2 lenses the most. This is the sweet spot for rangefinders. Keep your DSLR when you want action or long teles. Start with one lens... no hurry to buy more. 35mm f2 is classic. You may not need more, or can wait a long time. I would not lust after lots of lenses out of the gate. The Leica M experience is nothing like other contemporary cameras. And if you finally decide that this gaget is not your cup of tea, the resale value is tremendous, so you will not have lost a lot of money in the experiment. Good luck. I think techno-junkies are generally the type that regret the decision. Good luck JD

[budjames]

On 1/25/2019 at 5:36 AM, Flyer said:

and I bet I am blowing yours😂

I need help and my doctor doesn't know what to advise 😂😂😂😂😂.

I really want to get into the Leica world but I am not making a purchase decision easy.

I almost pulled the trigger on an M10 but bailed because I was unsure if I would like the rangefinder experience. My main photography is Wildlife and nature and a bit of Landscape but at 58yr my days of getting up at 4am for a sunrise are well behind me. So it's mainly Travel and urban stuff I would use this camera for.   (see my flikr below)

So my dilemma is I have a budget of only 7k and was looking at the M10 or SL with a 35mm.

The SL has lots of features I have been used to in the DSLR/Mirrorless world, but it seams a shame to use only manual focus lenses and lose out on the AF capabilities and IS etc. I know the solution is the 24-90 but thats just far too big and heavy, so just on that bases should I rule the SL out?  I am NOT looking for this to cover Wildlife/BIF I have a Nikon D5 and 200-500 for that.

The M10 looks to be the most suItable, but I guess I would need the Vioflex during the transition to the rangefinder process?

I know you can adapt lenses via an EOS adaptor but "do you really put Canon glass on a Leica"!!!?

If I was to design the perfect camera for "me" it would be a QP with changeable lenses, so I need to think what is nearest to that?

In the world on Leica 7k is peanuts, so it would probably be one on the following.

SL with 35mm 2.5 Summarit  (Body £4000 + Lens £1600) + EOS adaptor and a suItable walkabout zoom lens.

M10 with Voightlander 35mm (Body £5300 + Lens £700) + A 50mm

The Q is out because I don't think I can live with just a 28mm!

Also posted on SL thread.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/eazypix/

I suggest that you rent an M10 and Summicron 35mm or 50mm lens to shoot with it for a few days before you buy it. The only challenge with my recommendation is that once you feel the quality of the Leica gear and view a few images on your computer, you may get hooked. The other issue, is that it may take more than a few days of using the camera to get proficient at rangefinder focusing.

If you have a Leica store near you, I think they might loan you one for a few days without cost.

Be forewarned that once you see the image quality from the Leica primes, you end up spending a lot of money. An M10 and 50mm Summicron will cost almost $10k US. If you order from a Leica store outside of your state or from B&H Photo and you don't live in NY or NJ, you will save the sales tax cost. I live near Philadelphia, PA, and B&H Photo ships UPS Ground at no charge which is next day for my location.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

[Astropap]

On 1/25/2019 at 12:33 PM, pedaes said:

Agree totally with Adan. Used Canon A1/AE-1 's in 70's and 80's and then autofocus 1D's. Moving to Leica rangefinder in the 2010's was like coming home! 

My experience as well. I rented an M10 a few months ago and expected to struggle with focusing. I was pleased to find that it was very familiar to me. Focusing my Nikon F, which is still sitting in my closet, was very similar.

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[Paulus]

Am 25.1.2019 um 11:36 schrieb Flyer:

and I bet I am blowing yours😂

I need help and my doctor doesn't know what to advise 😂😂😂😂😂.

I really want to get into the Leica world but I am not making a purchase decision easy.

I almost pulled the trigger on an M10 but bailed because I was unsure if I would like the rangefinder experience. My main photography is Wildlife and nature and a bit of Landscape but at 58yr my days of getting up at 4am for a sunrise are well behind me. So it's mainly Travel and urban stuff I would use this camera for.   (see my flikr below)

So my dilemma is I have a budget of only 7k and was looking at the M10 or SL with a 35mm.

The SL has lots of features I have been used to in the DSLR/Mirrorless world, but it seams a shame to use only manual focus lenses and lose out on the AF capabilities and IS etc. I know the solution is the 24-90 but thats just far too big and heavy, so just on that bases should I rule the SL out?  I am NOT looking for this to cover Wildlife/BIF I have a Nikon D5 and 200-500 for that.

The M10 looks to be the most suItable, but I guess I would need the Vioflex during the transition to the rangefinder process?

I know you can adapt lenses via an EOS adaptor but "do you really put Canon glass on a Leica"!!!?

If I was to design the perfect camera for "me" it would be a QP with changeable lenses, so I need to think what is nearest to that?

In the world on Leica 7k is peanuts, so it would probably be one on the following.

SL with 35mm 2.5 Summarit  (Body £4000 + Lens £1600) + EOS adaptor and a suItable walkabout zoom lens.

M10 with Voightlander 35mm (Body £5300 + Lens £700) + A 50mm

The Q is out because I don't think I can live with just a 28mm!

Also posted on SL thread.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/eazypix/

IMHO the Nikon and the M 10 are an excellent combination. 7K will get you there. Buy a M10 ( costs about €6000 if you have a nice dealer and a second hand 35mm Summicron 2.0/35mm ASPH first model will cost you about € 1200 /€ 1500. An 50mm Summicron last model about € 1100,- so that's doable with 7000 pounds.