Fuji GFX vs SL

[Brian C in Az]

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6 hours ago, jaapv said:

The resolution difference between 24 and 30 MP is minimal to the point of irrelevant.

A 25% increase is irrelevant? Now you sound like a fanboy. A 25% increase could/would make the SL good enough that most won't want or need to upgrade to 50 mpx. Right now, 24 mpx is considered by many to be just a little on the low end. 

I'll wait to see what the Foveon sensor offers when/if they ever release it.

One good thing that the GFX has done for us is that it has shown there is a large enough market of whom video is not used or wanted in the camera, so maybe camera makers will finally give us camera that offers better stills without the compromises required for making the sensor capable of offering video.

 

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[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, Brian C in Az said:

A 25% increase is irrelevant? Now you sound like a fanboy. A 25% increase could/would make the SL good enough that most won't want or need to upgrade to 50 mpx. Right now, 24 mpx is considered by many to be just a little on the low end. 

I'll wait to see what the Foveon sensor offers when/if they ever release it.

One good thing that the GFX has done for us is that it has shown there is a large enough market of whom video is not used or wanted in the camera, so maybe camera makers will finally give us camera that offers better stills without the compromises required for making the sensor capable of offering video.

 

An increase to 30mp from 24 translates into an increase in dimensions from 6000x4000 to just over 6700x4470, an increase in linear resolution of 12%, which is where the difference would be visible (IMO). Not worth the the candle.

24Mp is more than good enough unless either you want to do a lot of cropping* or you have clients who demand (i.e. won't pay you unless you have) it. Both reasons are valid but certainly not common for most people.

What are the compromises required of a sensor for video? Genuinely curious. I am sure there are heat dissipation issues, but I'm not aware of others.

 

* I find that excessive cropping causes compostional/perspective problems that I'd rather avoid, so an increase in resolution wouldn't give me a better image that I'd want to print from. It's good for getting better social snaps, but not for gallery exhibits. YMMV

Edited December 17, 2018 by LocalHero1953

[BernardC]

7 hours ago, helged said:

+1. We already know that Panasonic will come with a FF, L-mount body with 47 mp sensor early/first half of 2019.

Exactly. The new Panasonic body will be unveiled early in the new year. I'm sure your local Panasonic dealer can take a deposit right now (provided they aren't too busy with holiday shoppers). There's no point in regretting the lack of a high-megapixel option in the L-mount; that lack will be remedied very soon.

I wouldn't wait for Leica to announce their own high-megapixel SL. They have never prioritized megapixels in their image-quality calculations. The next SL might have more megapixels, but it is very unlikely to have "the most" megapixels.

[thighslapper]

17 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Exactly. The new Panasonic body will be unveiled early in the new year. I'm sure your local Panasonic dealer can take a deposit right now (provided they aren't too busy with holiday shoppers). There's no point in regretting the lack of a high-megapixel option in the L-mount; that lack will be remedied very soon.

I wouldn't wait for Leica to announce their own high-megapixel SL. They have never prioritized megapixels in their image-quality calculations. The next SL might have more megapixels, but it is very unlikely to have "the most" megapixels.

I believe Panasonic said the full SPECIFICATIONS will be available in the New Year ...... and there is no definitive info on when a prototype will be shown or for that matter a production ready camera. I doubt if anything will appear before mid 2019. I would be getting increasingly annoyed by then if the SL2 had not materialised....... 

[Brian C in Az]

10 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

What are the compromises required of a sensor for video? Genuinely curious. I am sure there are heat dissipation issues, but I'm not aware of others.

In the TL section there was mention of the Foveon sensor roll out being delayed due to issues getting it perform fast enough for 4k video. So they are basically redesigning it as a 2 layer Bayer hybrid of sorts.

If they didn't try to get video out of it, the camera and sensor would probably already be in the stores. But now, the video issues may compromise the whole project of using the Foveon sensor as originally designed.

[Brian C in Az]

7 hours ago, BernardC said:

I wouldn't wait for Leica to announce their own high-megapixel SL. They have never prioritized megapixels in their image-quality calculations. The next SL might have more megapixels, but it is very unlikely to have "the most" megapixels.

Both Leica and the GFX share the "larger pixel is better than smaller higher density pixel" philosophy. The GFX pixels are only slightly smaller than the Leica SL pixels, but no where near as small as the pixels in the 45mpx+ sensor category.

Fuji is being rather tight lipped about the 100mpx MF sensor with no promises as far as when/if it is coming. Even though the resolution is obviously better, there may be dynamic range issues and other IQ /color issues that they need to address. Listening to him, you almost think that he is trying to temper everyones' enthusiasm.

 

[BernardC]

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12 hours ago, Brian C in Az said:

Both Leica and the GFX share the "larger pixel is better than smaller higher density pixel" philosophy.

I'm not convinced that it's a philosophy. Fuji is using the only (relatively) cheap medium format sensor that was available at the time. It's the same basic sensor that Pentax and Hasselblad use in their own low-end medium format offerings.

Using a different sensor would have raised the street price substantially.

[ynp]

Hello. 

 

I was demoed the new GFX-r at a friendly dealer. They had three lenses for our test: the 45mm , 63mm and 120mm Macro with a short extension tube. 

I was there with a friend who uses his 006, I use the S2 and owned the SL for a short time. Other people were much younger photographers, in the age bracket of 25-35 years old, male and female. 

My brief impressions on the camera:

- not very comfortable to handle without an additional grip with the macro lens. Ok with the lighter 45 and 63. The EVF is pretty good but less fantastic than the EVF on the SL. Loved the simplicity of the controls, very similar to the X series Leica cameras. 

- the face detection and eye detection focusing worked very well in a static portrait situation. A younger photographer, who has experience with a modern Sony camera, was not very impressed by the eye autofocus, but for me it was adequate. For my needs, people shooting in controlled situations, it works. 

- unfortunately, I was the only person who was interested in Focus bracketing with the macro lens, and we spent only five minutes on the demo of this feature. As far as I saw, it worked well. It’s a pity that Leica flushed into a toilet the inheritance from Sinar. My Sinar-M was able to do what the modern MF cameras try to do, and Leica S cameras will never do. 

One photographer brought her Fringer Contax 645 autofocus adapter with her and she used it with the 80mm Contax lens. It worked well , if a bit slow  I have several Contax 645 lenses and I love them on my S2. It means that I can use my Contax and Hasselblad HC lenses with the Fuji  

 

I liked the system we were demonstrated and I am seriously thinking about adding the GFXr to my S2. I have no interest in the SL or Panasonic FF cameras. I am ordering the CL before the new year and will try to test the Fuji system in the studio and outdoors soon. I am not ready to get rid of my S2, but I am not planning to return to the SL. 

 

Thanks. 

Yevgeny. 

[hhn360]

3 hours ago, ynp said:

Hello. 

 

I was demoed the new GFX-r at a friendly dealer. They had three lenses for our test: the 45mm , 63mm and 120mm Macro with a short extension tube. 

I was there with a friend who uses his 006, I use the S2 and owned the SL for a short time. Other people were much younger photographers, in the age bracket of 25-35 years old, male and female. 

My brief impressions on the camera:

- not very comfortable to handle without an additional grip with the macro lens. Ok with the lighter 45 and 63. The EVF is pretty good but less fantastic than the EVF on the SL. Loved the simplicity of the controls, very similar to the X series Leica cameras. 

- the face detection and eye detection focusing worked very well in a static portrait situation. A younger photographer, who has experience with a modern Sony camera, was not very impressed by the eye autofocus, but for me it was adequate. For my needs, people shooting in controlled situations, it works. 

- unfortunately, I was the only person who was interested in Focus bracketing with the macro lens, and we spent only five minutes on the demo of this feature. As far as I saw, it worked well. It’s a pity that Leica flushed into a toilet the inheritance from Sinar. My Sinar-M was able to do what the modern MF cameras try to do, and Leica S cameras will never do. 

One photographer brought her Fringer Contax 645 autofocus adapter with her and she used it with the 80mm Contax lens. It worked well , if a bit slow  I have several Contax 645 lenses and I love them on my S2. It means that I can use my Contax and Hasselblad HC lenses with the Fuji  

 

I liked the system we were demonstrated and I am seriously thinking about adding the GFXr to my S2. I have no interest in the SL or Panasonic FF cameras. I am ordering the CL before the new year and will try to test the Fuji system in the studio and outdoors soon. I am not ready to get rid of my S2, but I am not planning to return to the SL. 

 

Thanks. 

Yevgeny. 

Have you tried the GFX 50S?  Sounds like you shoot portraits in the studio and outside (like me).  I have the GFX 50S and even though it looks not very handsome, it's a very ergonomic camera to use, especially with the tilt-shift EVF adapter so that your face isn't pressed against the back of the camera.  If you are shooting in the studio and already handle larger cameras like the S2, perhaps you will like the ergonomics of the 50S.  

The 50S is my workhorse camera for studio and on location shoots.  I also use it for personal work too.  For my beauty shoots in the studio, I use the GF 120 macro lens.  For my fashion shoots outdoors, I mostly use the GF 110.  I also have the 63, 45, and 32-64.  As much as possible, I try to use the 110 when outside of my studio.  

I have the 50R (for casual shooting) on order and was told it may arrive Thursday at my local camera store.  I haven't handled it yet so don't know how it compares in the hand.  

I love the SL but right now that system is simply museum objects as the GFX is more appropriate for all my needs, unless the day comes when Profoto announces HSS capabilities for Leica.  

 

[ynp]

46 minutes ago, hhn360 said:

Have you tried the GFX 50S?  Sounds like you shoot portraits in the studio and outside (like me).  I have the GFX 50S and even though it looks not very handsome, it's a very ergonomic camera to use, especially with the tilt-shift EVF adapter so that your face isn't pressed against the back of the camera.  If you are shooting in the studio and already handle larger cameras like the S2, perhaps you will like the ergonomics of the 50S.  

The 50S is my workhorse camera for studio and on location shoots.  I also use it for personal work too.  For my beauty shoots in the studio, I use the GF 120 macro lens.  For my fashion shoots outdoors, I mostly use the GF 110.  I also have the 63, 45, and 32-64.  As much as possible, I try to use the 110 when outside of my studio.  

I have the 50R (for casual shooting) on order and was told it may arrive Thursday at my local camera store.  I haven't handled it yet so don't know how it compares in the hand.  

I love the SL but right now that system is simply museum objects as the GFX is more appropriate for all my needs, unless the day comes when Profoto announces HSS capabilities for Leica.  

 

Thank you very much for your comments. No I have not tried the GFX50s yesterday. My plan is to test drive both Fuji cameras and decide what is better for my needs.

I am an amateur photographer, and I have been shooting medium formal digital since when the 16 mpx backs were introduced and I still have a Rollei 6008af with a DB20 (Phase One). Shooting portraits is my hobby.  I often shoot paintings for my wife’s art business and used several Sinar multishot backs on different cameras.

Nowadays I use my Leica S2P with the Hasselblad 120mm second version. For some reason I am not happy with my copy of the Leica 120 mm  macro and prefer the HC 120-II for copying work. I am going to test the Fuji macro 120/4 for that kind of work during my tests. I hope it is that good as people say.  I will keep my S2 because I love its optical viewfinder for studio kind of shooting. I tried to use it outside in daylight with my ND filters but it’s a bit too difficult. An EVF camera or a rangefinder is much easier for me.  

 

 

[hhn360]

19 minutes ago, ynp said:

Thank you very much for your comments. No I have not tried the GFX50s yesterday. My plan is to test drive both Fuji cameras and decide what is better for my needs.

I am an amateur photographer, and I have been shooting medium formal digital since when the 16 mpx backs were introduced and I still have a Rollei 6008af with a DB20 (Phase One). Shooting portraits is my hobby.  I often shoot paintings for my wife’s art business and used several Sinar multishot backs on different cameras.

Nowadays I use my Leica S2P with the Hasselblad 120mm second version. For some reason I am not happy with my copy of the Leica 120 mm  macro and prefer the HC 120-II for copying work. I am going to test the Fuji macro 120/4 for that kind of work during my tests. I hope it is that good as people say.  I will keep my S2 because I love its optical viewfinder for studio kind of shooting. I tried to use it outside in daylight with my ND filters but it’s a bit too difficult. An EVF camera or a rangefinder is much easier for me.  

 

 

I think you  should test out the GFX 50S.  It sounds to me that from your experience in handling modular medium format cameras that the GFX 50S may be suitable for your style of photography.  

I shoot with a number of systems, including the Phase One XF 100.  I'm used to large cameras.  The 50S is much more ergonomic than my Phase One, for sure.  I regard the 50R more as rangefinder styled camera for street-type of photography.   I won't be using that in the studio, nor for on-location shoots but just purely for personal work.  If you are used to studio work, the 50S may be more suitable.

I am also an amateur photographer and shoot beauty & fashion.

https://www.hhnstudios.com/

 

[Brian C in Az]

On 12/17/2018 at 10:54 AM, thighslapper said:

I believe Panasonic said the full SPECIFICATIONS will be available in the New Year ...... and there is no definitive info on when a prototype will be shown or for that matter a production ready camera. I doubt if anything will appear before mid 2019. I would be getting increasingly annoyed by then if the SL2 had not materialised....... 

I think all of this plays into the cancellation of Photokina 2019. It sounds like there are numerous technical issues in the industry causing delays in the next big thing and that the big 3 (or 4 or5) said they need more time to develop and bring mature products to market.

[BernardC]

On 12/17/2018 at 12:54 PM, thighslapper said:

I believe Panasonic said the full SPECIFICATIONS will be available in the New Year ...... and there is no definitive info on when a prototype will be shown or for that matter a production ready camera.

As I mentioned in a different thread, my local camera store tells me that the Panasonic rep will be by early in the new year with a production camera (or two?). I have no reason to doubt that this is what the Panasonic rep told them.

[Brian C in Az]

On 12/17/2018 at 7:00 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

What are the compromises required of a sensor for video? Genuinely curious. I am sure there are heat dissipation issues, but I'm not aware of others.

Here is the link that was posted in the other thread. It mentions the redesign of the Foveon sensor to increase speed for video.

https://hi-lows-note.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2018-12-06

The current 3 layer design cannot be processed fast enough for 4k video. If they would forget about video, they could have already brought the FF Foveon sensor to market.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Brian C in Az

[jaapv]

Yes, but not one that would be suitable for  M lenses - the capture angle of a three-layer Foveon sensor is too narrow. Even a semi-Bayer two layer one will struggle.

[Brian C in Az]

I remember reading about Leica designing the lenses so the light is more straight and perpendicular to the sensor compared to other lenses. If what you say is correct, then Sigma or Panasonic will need to develop new lenses for the Foveon sensor?

I seem to recall that there is an M4/3 Foveon sensor that was marketed and sold a couple years ago. Did the lenses for that require a different design to assure the light trucks the sensor properly?

 

What about the R lenses? since they are larger than M lenses, are they more suitable for Foveon sensor applications?

Edited December 21, 2018 by Brian C in Az

[BernardC]

18 hours ago, Brian C in Az said:

I remember reading about Leica designing the lenses so the light is more straight and perpendicular to the sensor compared to other lenses. If what you say is correct, then Sigma or Panasonic will need to develop new lenses for the Foveon sensor?

I seem to recall that there is an M4/3 Foveon sensor that was marketed and sold a couple years ago. Did the lenses for that require a different design to assure the light trucks the sensor properly?

 

Sigma's interchangeable-lens Foveon cameras always used an SLR-style backfocus distance. That may be because of the sensor, or maybe because they realized that they couldn't justify launching another low-volume lens mount on their own. Their fixed-lens cameras have quite short backfocus distances.

I think that there is no point in speculating about how well the Panasonic and Sigma L-Mount cameras will work with M lenses. The only thing we know for sure is that Leica has a much greater incentive to ensure M-lens compatibility.

On the other hand, we have seen a definite trend toward "deliberate aberrations" in popular imaging. Popular movies use anamorphic lens flares as a feature integral to their visual language, and they've become a staple of car advertising (just like shallow depth of field was a staple of food photography 10 years ago). Instagram offers a huge variety of distressed looks that add visual impact to cell-phone pics. Photographers seek-out imperfect vintage (and sometimes new) lenses. It's a natural evolution that we've experienced many times in the past. Ultra-sharp Daguerreotypes were followed by Pictorialism. Wide-screen three-strip Technicolor was followed by gritty French New Wave.

Ultimate sharpness isn't a goal of creative photography. It is just a tool.

[jrp]

I hummed and hawed about this. The Christmas/ New Year price drop was very attractive. And body + lens are typically lighter than the SL equivalent (plastic v metal). But setting up a whole new system, for only incremental performance improvement, made me pause. I expect next year ‘s SL cameras to have better sensors, closing the gap further, as well as IBIS, etc. Let’s see if I made the better choice in a year ‘s time.  

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[pico]

One reservation I have regarding the Fuji is the unusual color matrix of the X-Trans sensor and post-processing potential today (but perhaps time will bring new software).

 

[ynp]

1 hour ago, pico said:

the X-Trans

AFAIK it’s a a Bayer sensor installed  in the GFX-50r.