Guest stnami Posted July 19, 2007 Share #21 Posted July 19, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Mario has promised to pay some of my printing costs so I can buy a heap of cameras, lemses and maybe if I am lucky.................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 Hi Guest stnami, Take a look here Let them try it ... (stay on topic, thanks!). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
fotografr Posted July 19, 2007 Share #22 Posted July 19, 2007 I am really getting kind of mad here - but before you continue reading please understand that I do not consider all Pro's being the same - ok! WHY should Leica treat Pro's better than Amateurs (or semi professional photographers)? Why should Pro's be able to test and play around and a normal user, who is paying the same amount is not getting these benefits? Why do Pro's have less money than normal users? Why are they considered a better species than amateurs????? I must say that this way of thinking is really annoying and actually shows the arrogance of some user who consider themselfs being somthing better because they claim to earn money with their equipment. Peter--Leica already have a "Leica Professional" program which offers loaner equipment and faster turnaround on repairs. Is this fair? You bet it is. If someone's income depends on having working equipment at their disposal, in my opinion that should have a higher priority than one who wants to make sure they have a camera or lens in time for their 2 year old's birthday party. Please do not interpret this as a form of elitism. It is simply a service to assist people in their occupation. Nikon and Canon have similar programs, and probably other camera manufactures as well. Getting back to Thorsten's question, the only drawback to the kind of program being suggested is that Leica production already can't keep up with the demand--at least, for lenses--and the M8 wouldn't be much good as a loaner without a few lenses going along. I do definitely agree that if more pros got their hands on an M8, they would start switching a lot of their assignment work to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted July 19, 2007 Share #23 Posted July 19, 2007 Are you a pro? Shall we compare money over the last few years? A pro has to watch the bottom line when buying gear and be rational. An amateur has the ultimate freedom, provided his job generates the means.... Pro photographers are not a monolithic group. The average pro is not going to get treatment preferential to an amateur. In the US, the average wedding shooter is making $30,000 a year, barely enough to justify a Canon Rebel. Now that the global media behemoths have put the bean counters in the drivers seat and tasked their lawyers with developing ever more onerous rights grabbing contracts many Photo Journalists are in even worse shape. Many are risking life and limb in war zones more for love then money. The James Nachtwey's and Annie Liebowitz's of the world exist in a different universe and make up a very small select segment of professional photogs. I'm not offended if Leica is more anxious to get a camera into the hands of the professions top shooters then in mine. It's no shock that most people will be more interested in seeing what a David Alan Harvey does with his M8 then what you or I do with ours. It's no accident that every photo essay shot with an M8 by a famous name that gets published immediately gets linked to in M8 forums as a sort of affirmation of the camera's worth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted July 19, 2007 Share #24 Posted July 19, 2007 “Lighting and composition are infinitely more important than which lens you own” This is all getting a bit bitchy. If someone uses a ccamera to earn their living then personally I have no problem with them receiving a different level of service from an amateur like me. Maybe I shouldn't feel that way, but it's the way I feel. However to return to the quote I've put above, this is something we should all recognise IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 19, 2007 Share #25 Posted July 19, 2007 Pro photographers are not a monolithic group. The average pro is not going to get treatment preferential to an amateur. In the US, the average wedding shooter is making $30,000 a year, barely enough to justify a Canon Rebel. Exactly what I mean. And then there is of course Guy, who owns every lens under the sun and then some . But him I would call an amateur, in the sense that he seems to love his job so much that he sees it as much as a hobby as a means to earn his daily beer...Which makes him as successful as he is. (sorry for the character analysis, Guy, I mean well...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpattinson Posted July 19, 2007 Share #26 Posted July 19, 2007 <humour> Really, why would we want a horde of pro's suddenly deciding to buy M8's? There's already a shortage of lenses as it is... I much prefer that a whole bunch of people who really need a point-and-shoot buy M8's... and then trade them in for a 'simpler' camera to the second hand market along with the lenses </humour> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest localplayer Posted July 19, 2007 Share #27 Posted July 19, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) "Leica's for Accountants" now that sounds like a great ad !! btw, canon kicks nikon's b*&% when it comes to pro gear, but that is for another thread somewhere else... anyway, my guess is the m8 does show up in a few "pro's" hands but who the heck cares. it would do Leica a world of good to have a few top names show up in the ads. I think seliger was using one at a party in nyc earlier this year. anyway, they need to do whatever they can to turn the image of the m8 around from an over-priced camera with lots of problems, to a great camera that is durable and reliable enough for real world usage; otherwise, once us weenies on this forum get our models in hand, demand will die off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSA Posted July 19, 2007 Share #28 Posted July 19, 2007 And this post really pisses me off. Why does the medical industry give kickbacks to doctors, wine and dine them and give them cut rates on equipment and medicine etc? Is this passed on to the patient? Is it fair? Or is it just the way industries work? I make my living at photography, and if I don't have my camera jump to the head of the line in repair for example, I could be screwed. More than a matter of not being able to use the camera for my family picnic - it's about keeping a roof over my head. And if I'm loaned a piece of gear (which I've never been in the position to have happen) then the image made by that equipment may end up being seen by millions which reflects well on the manufacturer. Photographers, alas, are making about the same as they were 10 years ago, esp in editorial. Can the same be said for other pro services? I think not. A fellow photographer uses this as an email signature occasionally which I think is apropos: “Lighting and composition are infinitely more important than which lens you own. If the guys with the most expensive lenses were the best photographers, my doctor and lawyer would be the best photographers in the world.” in your first paragraph, everything described is illegal and grounds for a fine or imprisonment and loss of licence. i am envious of your third paragraph in that i used to collect 98% of my billings but now get only 21%, while my malpractice costs have gone from $7000 a year to $52000, rent increased 5% compounded anually, office staff 10% a year etc. i suppose you are not exposed to undiagnosed aids, hepatitis and tuberculosis on a daily basis. maybe you should stick to what you know, even when you are pissed off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwfreund Posted July 19, 2007 Share #29 Posted July 19, 2007 I suppose that a piece of gear earns "pro" status when at least one pro has used it for a moneyshot. I doubt that any other definition is really defensible. If, on the other hand, you were to debate mind share, dollars of revenue, or units shipped, then I think it would be a rather dull and statistics-driven thread. I expect that lensbabies have achieved pro status by now :-) <rant> It matters not what you are using or what process you are following. I don't care if it is wet or dry process, n or c or l brand, or whatever. If a journeyman creates saleable photographs with the equipment, then it is pro equipment. Rather than theorize or pontificate, just take pictures and go try to sell them. I haven't heard anyone say "the pics were just spot on with perfect composition and at just the right moment, but too bad, I couldn't sell them because they were taken by an M8". </rant> <signature mood="annoyed">bob</signature> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted July 20, 2007 Share #30 Posted July 20, 2007 in your first paragraph, everything described is illegal and grounds for a fine or imprisonment and loss of licence. i am envious of your third paragraph in that i used to collect 98% of my billings but now get only 21%, while my malpractice costs have gone from $7000 a year to $52000, rent increased 5% compounded anually, office staff 10% a year etc. i suppose you are not exposed to undiagnosed aids, hepatitis and tuberculosis on a daily basis. maybe you should stick to what you know, even when you are pissed off. Okay I was wrong. So was the "Dr" in regards to pro photogs that I was responding to. In no way is what a medical doctor does the same as a photographer. But of course a doctor treating third world diseases is much different than one doing plastic surgery in Hollywood. Same difference between a high paid celebrity photog and one who's working to bring back the real world. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
isaac Posted July 20, 2007 Share #31 Posted July 20, 2007 Hello! ...an slr allows you to see what you are getting Wrong :-) A (D)SLR exactly shows you NOT what you get! You see, what you might will get in some milliseconds... Only with a rangefinder, you will see exactly, what you will get. So not forget, either YOU see the scene or the SENSOR will see the scene on a (D)SLR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khun_k Posted July 20, 2007 Share #32 Posted July 20, 2007 This is a new thread on this subject as the other one got into a discussion on service repair. So please, stay on subject, thanks! In reading http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/29126-who-still-using-their-5d-along.html I came to think, why doesn't Leica organize a really big "lend a M8" campaign amongst professionals. As one said, a lot of pro photographers using dSLR are very interested in the M8, but idea of buying one seem far to them. Whenever I use a Digilux 2, I always get one or more photographers approaching and saying "nice camera" and asking questions. Little do they know. But when I look at the final results at the wire or in the paper later, the D2 produces as great (and often better) results than the dSLR (one reason is that you have to try harder not having a large zoom). The occasions where a large zoom or tele IS needed are few (I don't do sports photos at all) Many would like to have a simpler tool than a dSLR, something that does not frighten people like a large dSLR does. They also admire the soundless photographing. Even a dSLR is far from the sound of the good old Nikon F3 motorized tank, you still notice the distinct sound of a dSLR across a room. I don't get that they don't just buy one. Then again, I have had long conversations with pro photographers telling how they love Leica and Hasselblad - but how expensive it is. Which is not true. Great glasses as the Canon 200mm F/1.8 goes for the same prices as Leica 180mm F/2.0. A Leica M8 house is less than a Canon Mark III. I just think they don't know. I think the experience so far with the M8 should tell that when someone gets a M8 in his or her hands for some weeks, they won't let go of it again. So perhaps "lend a Leica M8 for a month" would be a way to go. I use M for photography and adapted to M8 when it is become available in the market but I also use other photographic instruments, varies format. Leica built its name when professional choice is limited, now is much different. The precentage of real pro working on Leica is very limited and a lot of M users were shifted to use other type of camera and developed their skills over time, much more than those adapted to M. RF type of camera has its advantage and disadvantage which was why it is still existed and also why it became a niche choice. Leica aloong cannot decide, we, the photographers/users decide that and what it is is what it is. I must say with the M8 becomes available, it made me take more pictures than ever I did with other M camera, but there are also many professional assignments I cannot do with M8 and have to rely on other type/format of camera. M8 is joyful to use but professional use is not just about how happy am I when taking a picture, sadly enough. M8 is very reasonably priced, but it is not low. And Leica lenses are a huge investment for a pro to consider what can be delivered from the equipment they have to invest and we ought to be realistic that there are more and more companies and choices (thru taking picture or with post processing techniques) that the quality/result difference between a Leica and others have been reduced significantly so getting the absolute best quality is no longer just possible with a Leica. Luckily for the size of Leica they don't need to sell the Canon or Nikon quantity to survive, but for Leica to be a pro choice like Canon and Nikon, they do need to sell Canon or Nikon quantity, and that meant a R type camera - a revolutional R camera, for my point of view. A good Leica M, like M8, will always sell itself, to those wish/dream/desire about having a Leica M. I suspect to offer a campaign to loan Pros a M8 or two will increase how much sales to justify the cost to run such a campaign. Leica's success will be depending on primary the existing M user to adapt to M8, then develop a new generation of user to grow, it will take time, but I think Leica will be there for us to witness it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted July 20, 2007 Share #33 Posted July 20, 2007 I'm not sure why anybody needs to get their nose out of joint about this issue and I'm not sure what comparing salaries has to do with anything? If Leica want the M8 to be understood as a professional camera body then they must provide professional level service to back it up - it's as simple as that. Such service should involve loaner cameras and quick turnaround times measured in days not months (just as Nikon and Canon provide with their NPS and CPS professional service schemes) and it should involve pros getting priority over the weekend shooter (even though the latter has paid exactly the same amount of money for the same product). Pro service is part and parcel of a pro spec camera and, by definition, should only be available to bona fide pros. If Leica cannot provide such a service or are unwilling to prioritise pro customers over non-pros then they should come clean and stop marketing the camera as a professional camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 20, 2007 Share #34 Posted July 20, 2007 Rather than a loaner program for pros, Leica has actively (but quietly) had a giveaway program for celebrities. This is an inevitable feature of modern life, like it or not - a celebrity in Hollywood holding a Leica M8 (or even C-Lux 1) sells the brand more effectively than a wedding photographer in Wisconsin.* Incidentally, I've discussed the M8 with a few of the photographers that we work with here in Stockholm - invariably they are more interested in my old M6, which they cradle nostalgically as though it were an old relic of the past... (*town chosen at random and for alliteration only!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted July 20, 2007 Share #35 Posted July 20, 2007 This is an inevitable feature of modern life, like it or not - a celebrity in Hollywood holding a Leica M8 (or even C-Lux 1) sells the brand more effectively than a wedding photographer in Wisconsin. Indeed, and it gives you an idea as to what Leica's real target market is. I suspect that the new management want to do more of this kind of thing and move the brand (and products associated with it) from one that has been a byword for engineering/optical excellence to something more mainstream in the 'luxury' goods market. I wonder how long before we see Leica branded sunglasses? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 20, 2007 Share #36 Posted July 20, 2007 I seriously doubt that, Ian. Both the owner and the CEO of Leica are not just financiers and managers, but avid Leica photographers and Leica collectors. I am convinced they will never let that happen. Hermes might have-but they have sold out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted July 20, 2007 Share #37 Posted July 20, 2007 maybe this could help Leica's customers....................could be a sideline for Leica Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/29197-let-them-try-it-stay-on-topic-thanks/?do=findComment&comment=310143'>More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 20, 2007 Share #38 Posted July 20, 2007 Indeed, and it gives you an idea as to what Leica's real target market is. I suspect that the new management want to do more of this kind of thing and move the brand (and products associated with it) from one that has been a byword for engineering/optical excellence to something more mainstream in the 'luxury' goods market. I wonder how long before we see Leica branded sunglasses? I actually don't think they're gonna be going precisely in that direction again (see Jaap's comment on the Hermes venture), but they are definitely heading for a more mainstream market - and the latest CEO's comments on the more 'realistic' aims for future M lens development (in LFI) certainly lead me to think that the days of uncompromising optical excellence are probably in the past. As others have pointed-out, every lens developer nowadays has different time and economy constraints than they may have had in the past, and Leica is no exception to the new market realities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted July 20, 2007 Share #39 Posted July 20, 2007 As others have pointed-out, every lens developer nowadays has different time and economy constraints than they may have had in the past, and Leica is no exception to the new market realities. Well if CV can make impressive lenses for $350. and Zeiss can live with a sub-$1,000. price point Leica should be able to develop great lenses for say $1,500 - 1,800 with a small group of $3,500+ money is no object lenses to top the line. $10,000+ for 3 primes is in the stratosphere for even the high end of the 35mm market. Although who knows, if Canon pushes past 16MP, future Canon L lenses may wind up close to the Leica price range in order to handle the demands of a 35mm 22MP sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 20, 2007 Share #40 Posted July 20, 2007 I think this thread has covered most of the reasons why a lot of pros may not have considered or bought this camera. While there are lots of Leica enthusiasts out there, I don't see this enthusiasm among young and emerging photographers. Most that I know are pretty sold on Canon and have had no reason to even consider Leica. The ones who use Nikon, want to switch to Canon. Often they have barely heard of Leica. A lot of longtime Nikon users that I know have switched to Canon or are considering it. I don't know any who switched to Leica. Plus if they somehow get curious and investigate the M8, I think many will really be put off by the price/vs features compared with dslrs. And if they come to this forum and read all of the posts about rangefinder and lens focus problems and the other issues reported, that would give anyone a reason to take a long pause. Then if they check out how many users have had to return their cameras and or lenses for service or adjustments and how long the turn-around is for this, lack of availability of lenses or necessary filters... What are they to conclude? So while Leica may be doing ok with patient Leica enthusiasts, attracting new users, especially professionals, is an entirely different challenge. One friend of mine who is a pro shooter and uses Leica film cameras along with his Canon digitals. He has considered the M8, and can afford it, but much of what he heard about it has scared him off. Thus Leica still has a lot of work cut out for itself it wants to be more than a niche player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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