Open Letter to Leica in regards to the M10-D

[silverchrome]

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1 hour ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

It doesn't take "a ton of features" to render an online manual out of date, just the one I'm trying to puzzle out.  And that happens to Leica (e.g. firmware release 3 for the SL) just as it does to other companies that make consumer products.  In Leica's case there have been manuals released with errors that have never been fixed in the course of subsequent updates.  I don't think the pubs get very high priority.

Maybe I didnt express myself clearly, but the point I was trying to make is that even if Leica added a feature to a camera, it doesn't necessarily make the original paper manual useless. 

Out of date yes, but the manual could still be usable unless the feature fundamentally changed the operation of the camera.

 

[ianman]

I say well done to Leica for at least putting a foot into the paperless age.

I wish they would get rid of the OTT packing too... such a waste.

[ramarren]

On 11/10/2018 at 11:48 PM, LocalHero1953 said:

...
If the M10-D needs a manual (which I suspect it does, given the vital role of wifi and smartphone apps) then it has clearly drifted a long way from the concept of the previous MD: a camera stripped down to its essentials.

As said in other posts: the M-D 262 and the M10-D are two entirely different camera notions IMO. The M-D is/was the production version of the M Edition 60, a camera celebrating the absolute minimum digital camera honoring the 60th anniversary of the Leica M3. The M10-D is a full-fledged M10-P but with the configuration control options, related control buttons, and LCD functionality off-loaded to the Leica FOTOS app, running on a paired smartphone, for purposes of improved ergonomics in use. 

The M-D needs a manual only to illuminate how to set the date and time, how to do a firmware update, and how to clean the sensor; you can well do without it the vast majority of the time since anyone familiar with a Leica M can figure out all the controls needed to operate the camera in normal circumstances in about five minutes by inspection. The M10-D needs a manual to describe how to reach and use all of its additional functionality beyond the M-D, and the full manual is available as a PDF download.

(While I've read the M10-D manual now, I don't own an M10-D to determine just how good a manual it is ... but if it's like other Leica camera manuals, I suspect most of the needed info is there but is often a little difficult to interpret. Speaking as a retired technical writer: Yes, technical documentation is usually considered a second tier adjunct to engineering development projects and rarely given time, priority, or authority to do the best job.)

[IkarusJohn]

Sorry Godfrey, but I take a different view.  The M Edition 60 was very different to the M-D, though both shared the M(240) sensor, the M60 was based on the M(240)-P with a significantly different body and functionality, whereas the M-D was based on the M(262) with effectively the same body.

In the same way that the M-D was an M(262) stripped of its LCD, the M10-D is an M10-P also stripped of its LCD; but that’s all they have in common.  Same approach, different base cameras, that’s all.  The M10-D is not a development of the M-D (in the same way that the M-D was not, actually, a production version of the M Edition 60).  They’re just variants of different generations of M camera.

[blacksinner]

so all of this about paper and digital age?

[IkarusJohn]

When computers became prevalent in legal practise (when I started, we had IBM golfball selectrics and one Wang wordprocessor in the office), we all assumed we’d use less paper.  Quite the reverse happened - we use far more paper.  Documents are longer, we go though more iterations and we’re less disciplined about the amendments we make.  Curiously, I’ve also found that it is easier to pick up spelling mistakes and grammatical errors in hard copy than on the screen.

I have no problem with Leica providing a PDF of their manuals, but I would prefer it if they checked and updated the PDF manual for each  firmware upgrade.

[david strachan]

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2 hours ago, blacksinner said:

so all of this about paper and digital age?

It's about reducing costs for Leica. Nothing to do with "going green".

 

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[david strachan]

I don't mind the PDF version...haven't opened my hard copy i got with my new M-P 240.

...

[ianman]

4 hours ago, david strachan said:

It's about reducing costs for Leica. Nothing to do with "going green".

Whatever the motive, costs to Leica and the environment are reduced. Getting a manual printed is not just about using paper.

[Guest]

Well thanks for all the responses. I've taken Ramarren's advice and contacted Leica and am having them mail me a physical copy of the manual.

Ok I grant that I'm somewhat behind the curve in not being happy to have to dive off into the web' and download a PDF to print out or even store on a 'phone but I still expect to have a real manual when I do buy new cameras, as with my GH4's and GH5's and a colleague has one of the new Nikon Z7's, and yes that too has a real manual, ( and incidentally the manual that came with the De Dietrich stove top was invaluable for that installation!) 

I get that with a product that is likely to go through some firmware updates that'll change operating procedures and maybe give us more features down the road, but the basic camera as when it left the factory should continue to be pretty much the same so again for me a real manual is more than useful.....and reading a manual that's been downloaded to my 'phone? No that's not going to happen.

So anyway, I'm continuing to use the D as often as I can, finding things to like and other things that come into the category of "why the hell did they do  that?". I'll post a personal mini review in a few weeks.

Thanks again for the responses.....................

Edited November 14, 2018 by petermullett
spelling

[papimuzo]

Well understood. Waiting for your review with pleasure.

Have a lot of joy with your new toy.

[patrickcolpron]

On 11/10/2018 at 10:04 PM, petermullett said:

... but there was nothing else in the now ridiculous to my mind origami chest of drawers, ( Commode / French ), that even resembled a manual for this new camera. 

First M10 I purchased the seller gave me on the side a printed manual, second one, I sent an employee to pick it up for me as I was out of town. No Manual, I am sure I could ask for one and they would provide me one. I just never did ask for it.

I would be miffed without a manual for the M10-D not sure it is on Leica's part or the seller. With the first camera I was provided with both a French and an English manual. 

Since I tend to think in terms of solutions ... call your seller, ask for a printed manual - in the meantime 

http://en.leica-camera.com/Service-Support/Support/Downloads?category=93710&subcategory=153183&type=&language=all

French, English, Italian... German instruction manual in all available languages 😉 

[Guest]

Thank you Patrick, I did rattle some cages with my dealer and a contact I have at Leitz in Wetzlar, both of whom promised "to sort it out and get a manual to me". We'll see if that happens, though I'm sure one will arrive at sometime or other. Meanwhile I'm stumbling through using the D feeling like I've never picked up a digital Leica before. I loathe the semi-dependency on the wifi and a 'phone, but with luck when I get to know the thing better I'll be able to allow all that "connectivity" stuff to fade away and it's on-going use for me will be minimal, at least I hope so..........BUT the M10-D, putting aside some present irritations, is a beautiful thing that's for sure.

Thanks again for your post and the link..........

[snooper]

We had the same debates in the cockpits about 10 years ago. We were amongst the first in Europe to go paperless and have our ton of documentation on a simple.. iPad ! We heard everything, from "what if you run out of battery" to "(paper) documentation is the ground of aviation safety as everything should be written" etc etc.

Yes indeed, there is an environmental cost for all of this paper to be printed, but that is not the main point. The main point is accessing the information faster. Much faster.

In the case of the M10, the pdf documentation is bi-lingual (i.e. German / English). Takes few seconds to download, open it in a decent pdf reader, get rid of the German section I can't read anyway, save it to my cloud, and now it is available on each device. Best pdf reader on iPad is probably "goodreader", it is synced with the cloud anyway, no matter where I am, and the best is yet to come: go to the index page, find what you are looking for, click on the line and there you go, goodreader will transport you straight to the info you are looking for.

And that file (just English) is like 7.5 Mo, you can have it in your phone should you be stressed by the possibility of forgetting overnight where is your shutter speed selector on the camera 🤪

After ten years using soft-documentation in the cockpit, and being relax about the reliability, I almost forgot what it takes to find the proper answer quickly in a paper documentation. No use of keywords, no indexation... Stone age at a digital time !

So if Leica could improve something, it might be the soft-documentation. Use xml and export in pdf, this will allow easy indexation and search, as well as updates if needed.

Also - as it is digital - put only one language per file !

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Edited November 19, 2018 by snooper
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[jankap]

+1!

116 pages for a manual camera! Amazing (= erstaunlich = étonnant).

What language shall we chose as a European language, now the English are leaving the EU?

Jan

Edited November 19, 2018 by jankap

[SiOnara]

The iPhone is much more complicated and Apple usually ship it with 2 stickers 😉

[earleygallery]

1 hour ago, SiOnara said:

The iPhone is much more complicated and Apple usually ship it with 2 stickers 😉

What ARE those stickers for? I've never found a use for mine. They don't work well as screen protectors.

[SiOnara]

Just now, earleygallery said:

What ARE those stickers for? I've never found a use for mine. They don't work well as screen protectors.

Haha. Tradition. I'd miss them thought if they weren't included 😉

[xiaoheli]

In Leica's defense:  the only reason for me personally to keep any user manual is to make it "complete box" when reselling it so others think it is more valuable.... I never touched it in my M9, M10, TL2, M246... Leica should be intuitive enough to use for those die hard users who buy this machine, and if there is question on setting, Google turns out relevant result much faster than paper manual. 

In user's defense: Leica is the only company who can financially justify and afford to make a small niche of photographers feeling like they are thrown back in time when limitation creates appreciation and presence, and people obviously pay for the experience. In this fashion if Leica wants to market the digital machine in analog shell as "analog soul",  treat your core customers as they are treated in the 60s to create the perfect total experience and don't cut the corners.

In my defense - the advance lever is too pretentious, sorry, it doesn't make the cut this time. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by xiaoheli
typo

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[IkarusJohn]

11 hours ago, jankap said:

+1!

116 pages for a manual camera! Amazing (= erstaunlich = étonnant).

What language shall we chose as a European language, now the English are leaving the EU?

Jan

Esparanto.

Europeans won’t be allowed to use English after Brexit.