Any news about the full frame Sigma Foveon L-mount camera?

[rosuna]

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I like the SL and S Panasonics. The future Sigma will be a fat girl too, but I wish prettier than the DP Quattro Pro.

 

There is one reason for that: lenses for L mount and FF sensor are big, really big. Zooms, telephotos, high optical quality, 24x36mm... all that requires large bodies with mass and grips for a comfortable handling. 

 

Imagine a CL like camera with a 105/1.4 lens, or that tele-zoom by Leica.

 

The SL is beautiful and the S Panasonic cameras are more conventional but also pretty in their own terms. Size has to be like that.

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[rosuna]

3:18Sigma Quattro Pro? Blooper

[lct]

[...] lenses for L mount and FF sensor are big, really big. Zooms, telephotos, high optical quality, 24x36mm... all that requires large bodies with mass and grips for a comfortable handling. [...]

 

Thanks no thanks then. Sony and now Nikon (also Olympus and Leica in the past) show that there is no serious reason why a FF camera would be as bulky as a MF one. I suspect that the SL2 will have the same size as the Pana SR1 and i will let it go the same way as i did when Leica sold its bulky Leicaflexes and R8/R9 instead of the compact R4 to R7 bodies. My only hope is SIgma will choose compactness as well otherwise i will stick to modded Sonys for my M and R lenses. YMMV again.   

[rosuna]

Thanks no thanks then. Sony and now Nikon (also Olympus and Leica in the past) show that there is no serious reason why a FF camera would be as bulky as a MF one. I suspect that the SL2 will have the same size as the Pana SR1 and i will let it go the same way as i did when Leica sold its bulky Leicaflexes and R8/R9 instead of the compact R4 to R7 bodies. My only hope is SIgma will choose compactness as well otherwise i will stick to modded Sonys for my M and R lenses. YMMV again.   

 

 

Sigma lenses are big, so the body will be big as well. 

 

AF lenses are larger than MF lenses, and this explains why mirrorless cameras are large too. The human hand size is also a constraint. 

 

Anyway, Panasonic, Canon, Nikon and Sony mirrorless cameras are smaller than reflex cameras (total volume and weight), but not so much. The lenses are the same, and you need a grip for managing the set of body + lens. 

 

The only mirrorless camera with 24x36 format that escapes this rule is the M. The reason is the manual focus lenses and the constraint of the viewfinder. Super small high performing lenses have to be expensive though. 

 

For really small systems you have to go to APS-C or micro 4/3, but even then, if you offer long teles and large zooms, big bodies are necessary.

 

Leica's approach to the T/C L system is different: small lenses for small bodies. But they are pricey and the zooms are not very luminous.

 

This characteristic smallness of the M system, really unique, is the reason I think a CM camera (like the CL, but M mount and FF sensor) would be a good idea. 

 

The L-system for FF format is very interesting but in all I think it will be large (bodies and lenses) and quite expensive, no matter the brand (Leica, Panasonic or Sigma). 

[lct]

[...] Panasonic, Canon, Nikon and Sony mirrorless cameras are smaller than reflex cameras (total volume and weight), but not so much. [...]

 

Not sure to follow you here.

Panasonic has never made FF DSLRs.

As for Canon, Nikon and Sony mirrorless cameras, they are considerably smaller than their DSLRs counterparts:

http://j.mp/2P430td

http://j.mp/2NphhiJ

http://j.mp/2RrSldI

The Leica digital SL looks like a monster by comparison:

http://j.mp/2RwPv7u

[rosuna]

"Not so much" is relative.

 

Panasonic FF mirrorless may be compared to reflex cameras of different companies.

[lct]

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One of the main advantages of mirrorless is size. Seems like Leica and Panasonic are alone to offer such big mirrorless cameras. It's up to them if they believe they can sell, which i doubt but i'm no CEO. I just hope Sigma is still interested in compact bodies personally.

[jankap]

Sigma's CEO said the real problem with Foveons is the processing of the image. Current processors (or software tools associated to them) are optimized for typical Bayer sensors, and Foveons need a different type of algorithms. It is not easy to get the final RAW image from a Foveon. That is the reason the cameras are slow. 

 

There are other problems with the Quattro Pro. The Foveons also have difficulties with higher ISO values (maybe related to the processing problem above) but the mount was the worse problem of those cameras. The SA mount was for reflex cameras. Mirrorless are different.

 

 

I think, they already have a computer program. The algorithm is more or less a one-time effort. Perhaps the program has to be modified occasionally. 

 

The problem with the sensor is, that the blue, green and red parts of the light do not separate clean in the different layers. 

The first layer of the sensor is for blue generally, but also takes a part of the greens and reds. The second one (green) consumes part of the reds.

The software has to try to correct the partitioning over the colors.

This consumes ISO-sensitivity of the sensor. 

 

As Jaap has written, the sensor is with 3 layers thicker than a Bayer one. The incoming light is channelled. This consumes light too and is a problem for rangefinder lenses (the WA ones).

Jan

Edited October 7, 2018 by jankap

[jankap]

 

Not sure to follow you here.

Panasonic has never made FF DSLRs.

As for Canon, Nikon and Sony mirrorless cameras, they are considerably smaller than their DSLRs counterparts:

http://j.mp/2P430td

http://j.mp/2NphhiJ

http://j.mp/2RrSldI

The Leica digital SL looks like a monster by comparison:

http://j.mp/2RwPv7u

 

 

Interesting ist to compare the M10p here.

Imagine, if the optical viewfinder and the rangefinder mechanism would be left out. OK, a TV-viewfinder takes room.

Jan

[rosuna]

One of the main advantages of mirrorless is size. Seems like Leica and Panasonic are alone to offer such big mirrorless cameras. It's up to them if they believe they can sell, which i doubt but i'm no CEO. I just hope Sigma is still interested in compact bodies personally.

 

 

The difference in body size of Leica and Panasonic cameras relative to the new Canon and Nikon (or Fuji) is not significant.

 

The difference in total size (body + lens) between mirrorless and reflex for 24x36 format is real, but not so important, because the size and weight of the lenses is very similar. 

 

The most limiting constraint for the L platform will be the price. Leica and Panasonic make high quality products, and the same goes for the Art series of Sigma lenses. 

 

If you want something really smaller you have to go for APS-C or m4/3, or the only system based on manual focus lenses (the Leica M system). 

[jankap]

One of the main advantages of mirrorless is size. Seems like Leica and Panasonic are alone to offer such big mirrorless cameras. It's up to them if they believe they can sell, which i doubt but i'm no CEO. I just hope Sigma is still interested in compact bodies personally.

 

I fear, that small cameras are being asked, but firstly they must impress. See the special models of the M (white, golden, metallic).

 

My 280mm lens of Leica for instance carries gigantic red dots on both sides. No, it carried them.

I think the CEOs know this and therefore make their products large and with many "features": IBIS, AF, video, etc..

Jan

 

PS Of course not us: Ict, rosuna and myself.

[Chaemono]

Small cameras look fragile and they appear as if they don’t pack enough specks. Commercial clients associate size with specs. Sony mirrorless is a no-go for paid work with many commercial clients.

[lct]

Cameras can hardly be made for pro photographers if a lot more hobbyists are bot interested by them.

[Chaemono]

That's a bet Panasonic is willing to take. No point in making the system small when the lenses are soft wide open. See here comparison Sony FE 24-70/2.8 GM vs. Vario-Elmarit-SL 24-90/2.8-4. The Sony lens is small but at 24 mm wide open utterly useless: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-x8Mwmw/

[lct]

The difference in body size of Leica and Panasonic cameras relative to the new Canon and Nikon (or Fuji) is not significant.

The difference in total size (body + lens) between mirrorless and reflex for 24x36 format is real, but not so important, because the size and weight of the lenses is very similar.  [...]

 

I beg to differ. People preferring compact cameras can find compact lenses as well. Just to take my example, none of my Nikon or Sony FF/AF lenses are bigger than my R ones which did sit easily on my compact R4s for many years.

[jaapv]

A lens needs to be small, high quality , fast and reasonably priced. You can have three out of four, sometimes even two. That is called a design compromise.

[BernardC]

The choice is clear going forward. If you want a small interchangeable lens camera, you should look at Micro Four Thirds and APS-C. There will be a slight quality compromise, but it will be marginal enough to be immaterial for most photographers.

 

The new "full frame" systems are marketed to consumers who are prepared to pay a substantial premium for a slight increase in performance (whether imagined or real). I don't think that the various competing brands will be willing to compromise the quality in order to sell a system that competes with their smaller-sensor cameras. Remember: they want you to buy both systems.

 

The main exception, as always, is the M.

[frame-it]

from the Sigma interview >>

 

"

――Lマウントの仕様について、3社で決めるようなことはあるのでしょうか。

基本的に、ハードウエアの部分は既存のままで変わりません。その中でやりとりする信号とかデータとかをアップグレードする、といった拡張の余地はあると思っています。懐の深いレンズ交換式カメラのシステムにすべく、3社で話し合っていきます。"

 

==

 

Q- Is there something that three companies will decide on the specification of L mount?

Basically, the hardware part remains unchanged. I think that there is room for expansion such as upgrading signals and data exchanged among them. We will talk with three companies to become a system with a deep lens interchangeable camera.

 

 

 

Q――Foveonでフルサイズ、難しくはないのですか？

実際にセンサーの量産を始めてみないと何ともいえない面もありますが、すでに設計はできています。Foveonセンサーに限らず、フルサイズのセンサーを作ること自体に難しさがあります。他社がやっていますし、当社もチャレンジしようと思っています。

 

 

- Full size with Foveon, is not difficult?

There are some aspects that can not be said without actually starting mass production of sensors, but we have already designed it. Not limited to Foveon sensors, there are difficulties in making full-size sensors themselves. Other companies are doing it, and we are planning to challenge.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount