New Panasonic Full Frame with SL Mount?

[PeterGA]

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Sorry, but I'm just never going to buy a Fuji product again ... They've all been disappointing to me other than Instax film. Such it is.

 

I'm glad they make you happy, regardless!

 

I like your combination of M and CL I'm sure it works well for you - the Cl is a tempting piece of kit for sure.

I've been mucking around with Fuji for a couple of years and now, recently testing the GFXs against my XID in a head to head death race- beautiful as the XID is it just lost its head ! Fuji will own the MF market (FWIW) by the time they release their 100megapixel game changer this time next year - Phase One just committed 'ritual sepuku' on a Fuji stage at Photokina....

As for 35mm so-called full frame by youtube experts - I'll never sell my M or SL - but the XT3 gives me what Leica doesn't -  a mount for a 400/2.8 long lens. <wink>

[thighslapper]

Leica never communicated who builds the SL lenses for them. Some time ago I read a speculation that it is Sigma but Leica refuses to comment. Now it makes all sense. Camera from Pana and lenses from Sigma.

 

All the SL lenses are made in Leica factories in Germany/Portugal.

 

The TL lenses are made by a Japanese manufacturer.

 

If the SL lenses were made by Sigma or Panasonic I doubt we would be waiting so long for them to appear ..... 

[sillbeers15]

Leica never communicated who builds the SL lenses for them. Some time ago I read a speculation that it is Sigma but Leica refuses to comment. Now it makes all sense. Camera from Pana and lenses from Sigma.

Check your sources again. Other than the TL series, Leica Germany makes their current range of S, SL & M lenses.

[Chaemono]

Leica never communicated who builds the SL lenses for them. Some time ago I read a speculation that it is Sigma but Leica refuses to comment. Now it makes all sense.

No, it doesn’t. See link below for some comparisons 50 Summilux-SL, 55 Otus, and Sigma Art 50/1.4. The Sigma lens holds up really well against the other two. It renders like the 55 Otus and one has to crop a lot to see that it’s not as sharp as the Zeiss lens wide open. Also, for accuracy the Sigma needs to be focused manually. AF will be all over the place when the subject is not clearly defined. Still, it’s incredible value for money. The AF of the SL lens is always spot on. For depth rendering, the 50 Summilux-SL is in a league of its own.

 

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-9J3jzS/

Edited September 27, 2018 by Chaemono

[LocalHero1953]

Check your sources again. Other than the TL series, Leica Germany makes their current range of S, SL & M lenses.

Of my three TL lenses, one, the 60, says "Made in Germany" on it. The 18 TL and the 18-56 TL both say "Made in Japan".

The 35 TL is also made in Germany.

[sillbeers15]

Of my three TL lenses, one, the 60, says "Made in Germany" on it. The 18 TL and the 18-56 TL both say "Made in Japan".

The 35 TL is also made in Germany.

I made the remark cause in one of Leica’s communication earlier, Leica themselves said TL lenses will be made in Japan but did not mention the source of supply.

[mmradman]

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I’m going to pick you up on this one. Previous P models offerred only cosmetic changes (sapphire glass) and sometimes a bigger buffer, nothing else.

This P model has a significantly quieter shutter and a touch screen and also a level gauge. Three significant technical upgrades which previous models didn’t.

 

So I would say that turns your argument precisely upon it’s head!

Jono, i thought you might say that.   

 

I dont have or had M10 or derivative but touch screen as i understands is less of a feature in a shooting situation.  Good old sapphire glass or fitting back of lens frame-line leaver on M240P, not to mention doubling of a buffer memory were more substantia and perhaps justified premium.  Let's face it omission of level sensor at launch was deliberate so it can be introduced in P model due to popular demand.

[LocalHero1953]

Jono, i thought you might say that.   

 

I dont have or had M10 or derivative but touch screen as i understands is less of a feature in a shooting situation.  Good old sapphire glass or fitting back of lens frame-line leaver on M240P, not to mention doubling of a buffer memory were more substantia and perhaps justified premium.  Let's face it omission of level sensor at launch was deliberate so it can be introduced in P model due to popular demand.

Evidence? Leica's deliberate omission or just a misreading of the market?

Weasel words like "Let's face it....", "Let's not pretend....." are just prefaces to opinions trying to persuade people they are facts.

 

As it happens, I am uninterested in a level in a M camera unless it is visible in the OVF. And I would avoid touch screen unless the interface is designed for it, as in the TL2.

OTOH the quieter shutter, which I have tried in the hand, is (IMO) a big step forward in the M10-P.

[mmradman]

Evidence? Leica's deliberate omission or just a misreading of the market?

Weasel words like "Let's face it....", "Let's not pretend....." are just prefaces to opinions trying to persuade people they are facts.

 

As it happens, I am uninterested in a level in a M camera unless it is visible in the OVF. And I would avoid touch screen unless the interface is designed for it, as in the TL2.

OTOH the quieter shutter, which I have tried in the hand, is (IMO) a big step forward in the M10-P.

Good on Leica, for one open minded observer there is at least one ardent defender.  This is internet not a criminal or civil court, no evidence required, we form opinions and make statements based on our preferences, observation and God knows what other factors.  I am not a Leica hater, have fair amount of their stuff and don't intend migrating to any other platform any time soon.  Is it a deadly sin to be open minded and stating what i believe to be obvious?

 

Evidence? are you Defence Barrister?  I have sufficient basic technical knowledge to figure out what may be going on.  Level sensor was designed to be included at the outset and than a tiny sensor chip or several tiny electronic components were either omitted from Mk 1 electronic board or functionality was disabled.  It cost Leica pennies to introduce. 

 

I suspect making shutter more silent was again a question of adding extra noise attenuating bits to the existing shutter.  Do you believe they introduced brand new redesigned shutter mechanism?

[wattsy]

I suspect making shutter more silent was again a question of adding extra noise attenuating bits to the existing shutter.

 

 

Maybe, but are you suggesting that Leica deliberately held back on those "noise attenuating bits" for the original M10 release?

[jonoslack]

Jono, i thought you might say that.

 

I dont have or had M10 or derivative but touch screen as i understands is less of a feature in a shooting situation. Good old sapphire glass or fitting back of lens frame-line leaver on M240P, not to mention doubling of a buffer memory were more substantia and perhaps justified premium

Well. I thoroughly disagree.

Having said that, personally I don’t need a level gauge or a touchscreen and I prefer the sound of my M10 (which already has toughened glass and an adequate buffer)

But I still think this is a more substantial upgrade than previous ones

[jaapv]

Good on Leica, for one open minded observer there is at least one ardent defender.  This is internet not a criminal or civil court, no evidence required, we form opinions and make statements based on our preferences, observation and God knows what other factors.  I am not a Leica hater, have fair amount of their stuff and don't intend migrating to any other platform any time soon.  Is it a deadly sin to be open minded and stating what i believe to be obvious?

 

Evidence? are you Defence Barrister?  I have sufficient basic technical knowledge to figure out what may be going on.  Level sensor was designed to be included at the outset and than a tiny sensor chip or several tiny electronic components were either omitted from Mk 1 electronic board or functionality was disabled.  It cost Leica pennies to introduce. 

 

I suspect making shutter more silent was again a question of adding extra noise attenuating bits to the existing shutter.  Do you believe they introduced brand new redesigned shutter mechanism?

I rather doubt that. My guess is that there simply was no space for the level sensor and extra shutter dampening. As components shrink constantly it is quite possible that the redesign of one or two boards made the features possible.

[mmradman]

Maybe, but are you suggesting that Leica deliberately held back on those "noise attenuating bits" for the original M10 release?

It may sound like i am insinuating but i look at this from purely technical perspective, what is possible and what is feasible.  We see P variants are mid life cosmetic upgrades with top plate engraving, which i like as it is like, for example, tab on Levis Jeans and provides link to the early cameras. There are also few other minor technical or cosmetic upgrades.

 

Once a technical product is designed and specifications, engineering drawings, firmware developed and validated and tooling created, to mention few steps, there is very little room and financial incentive to redesign from ground up. So you need to think of mid life upgrade product at the outset and plan for it. 

 

My evidence; I have no specific evidence, i am not a fly in Leica Boardroom or Design Office. I do have engineering background and over the years i learned that there is no magic in it, mostly constraints and expensive fixes if things are not thought out from the outset, i have to deal with this on a daily basis in my area of work.  Reading Eyes Wide Open or 100 Years of Leica Photography is looks to me  that Leica business thought and acted from the beginning as any other technical company when planning new products.  Company ethos and approach doesn't change much from one year to the other, only changes are the result and pressures of constant march of new technologies, as I said there is no magic in it. 

[LocalHero1953]

Good on Leica, for one open minded observer there is at least one ardent defender. This is internet not a criminal or civil court, no evidence required, we form opinions and make statements based on our preferences, observation and God knows what other factors. I am not a Leica hater, have fair amount of their stuff and don't intend migrating to any other platform any time soon. Is it a deadly sin to be open minded and stating what i believe to be obvious?

 

Evidence? are you Defence Barrister? I have sufficient basic technical knowledge to figure out what may be going on. Level sensor was designed to be included at the outset and than a tiny sensor chip or several tiny electronic components were either omitted from Mk 1 electronic board or functionality was disabled. It cost Leica pennies to introduce.

 

I suspect making shutter more silent was again a question of adding extra noise attenuating bits to the existing shutter. Do you believe they introduced brand new redesigned shutter mechanism?

Ardent defender, me? Certainly, of the real distinction between evidence-based facts/conclusions and opinions masquerading as facts.

 

Do I believe they introduced a new redesigned shutter mechanism? I have no idea how the old or new shutters work. Belief doesn't come into it. All I know is that it is the quieter shutter that is a more substantial upgrade for me than touchscreen, level or toughened glass.

[mmradman]

Ardent defender, me? Certainly, of the real distinction between evidence-based facts/conclusions and opinions masquerading as facts.

 

Do I believe they introduced a new redesigned shutter mechanism? I have no idea how the old or new shutters work. Belief doesn't come into it. All I know is that it is the quieter shutter that is a more substantial upgrade for me than touchscreen, level or toughened glass.

M10 - M10P introduced into discussion to try to illustrate inner workings of product development, time to go back to the original thread. Providing you as end user are happy with the camera in your hands, ignore CFO input into the development process.  Your camera, your money and your satisfaction.    

 

I think Leica/Pana/Sigma cooperation is really fascinating development and have potential to move photo industry in new exciting direction, also keep Leica relevant in the future.  It will definitely light new fire under the competitor's feet, we all gain.

[mmradman]

Well. I thoroughly disagree.

Having said that, personally I don’t need a level gauge or a touchscreen and I prefer the sound of my M10 (which already has toughened glass and an adequate buffer)

But I still think this is a more substantial upgrade than previous ones

Jono, your dis-agreement is noted.  It is not going to change my views. 

[LocalHero1953]

M10 - M10P introduced into discussion to try to illustrate inner workings of product development, time to go back to the original thread. Providing you as end user are happy with the camera in your hands, ignore CFO input into the development process.  Your camera, your money and your satisfaction.    

 

I think Leica/Pana/Sigma cooperation is really fascinating development and have potential to move photo industry in new exciting direction, also keep Leica relevant in the future.  It will definitely light new fire under the competitor's feet, we all gain.

To be clear, I don't have either M10 or M10-P. Neither were sufficient steps forward from the M240 IMO, though I acknowledge the much quieter M10-P shutter. 

[Guest]

The results are a healthy plus, with the Huawei licence income significantly up, camera turnover 10% down and the rest basically slightly up.

I’m not sure about “healthy”. The management report states “Im Lagebericht gibt es demnach die zusammenfassende Aussage, dass der Vorstand mit der Umsatz- und Ertragsentwicklung nicht vollständig zufrieden sei.”

 

The licensing growth is very “healthy” though

[mmradman]

To be clear, I don't have either M10 or M10-P. Neither were sufficient steps forward from the M240 IMO, though I acknowledge the much quieter M10-P shutter. 

Noted, there is always some incremental and some substantive improvements.  I found upgrade from M240 EVF, otherwise excellent camera to SL601 worthwhile.  For RF experience M246, M240 derivative, remains great camera.  

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[mmradman]

 

 

 

I’m not sure about “healthy”. The management report states “Im Lagebericht gibt es demnach die zusammenfassende Aussage, dass der Vorstand mit der Umsatz- und Ertragsentwicklung nicht vollständig zufrieden sei.”

 

The licensing growth is very “healthy” though

That is interesting, perhaps explains new cooperation strategies.

 

for those not conversant with German or Google Translate it reads:-

 

Im Lagebericht gibt es demnach die zusammenfassende Aussage, dass der Vorstand mit der Umsatz- und Ertragsentwicklung nicht vollständig zufrieden sei.”

According to the management report, the summary statement states that the Management Board is not completely satisfied with the sales and earnings development. "

 

 

Edited September 27, 2018 by mmradman