AlanG Posted July 13, 2007 Share #21 Posted July 13, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Best I can tell the Leica name is owned by the Donaher corp. They own the microscope division and at one time tried to buy the geosystems division too. Donaher is a tool company controlled by the Rales brothers and the company has a lot of divisions: DANAHER CORP /DE/ - DHR Annual Report (10-K) EXHIBIT 21.1 The name "Leica" is registered several times. It may be that the Leica micoscope company has the trademark to use the name "Leica" for the products it lists on the registration and the camera company has the rights for the name "Leica" for the products it lists on the registration. (I am not a lawyer so I don't really know how this works.) Here is is a trademark search on Leica: Record List Display Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 13, 2007 Posted July 13, 2007 Hi AlanG, Take a look here Who owns the 'Leica' name? Customers or Shareholders?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
aXs Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share #22 Posted July 13, 2007 ...the important question... can Leica ban from using Leica' domain names... which country's laws apply... . My position is somewhat special... I had to find an agreement both sides can live with... they don't want Leica to be used as part of a foreign domain... I told them about other Leica-Domains (there are much more) but that didn't help... Admin Andreas, first of all, my compliments to you for the new website! I wish you continued success for your Projektmanagement company and I'm sure that the shareholder(s) of Leica Camera AG are aware of how important the Forum is for Leica's commercial success. It is a big responsibility. I personally thank you for giving me - (along with other members) - the opportunity to share Leica-related information on a friendly basis. "...I told them about other Leica-Domains... there are much more... Andreas, could you please add your list of "Leica" foreign domain-names to this thread, the ones you presented to Leica during your meeting in Solms? It would give the LUG-readers a more complete documentation. --- LFI-magazine I find the independent LFI-magazine is a similar case in point. It is published by a private publishing company based in Hamburg only since ca. 2 - 3 years, (although the magazine was directly published by Leica for decades). Interesting is the fact, that LFI-magazine has expanded their website "lfi-online.de" including Leicaphotography galleries and adverts - and I assume the company also "packages" editiorial content for at least part of the official Leica website. The LFI-magazine print editions are distributed internationally and their website content is viewed internationally. So if this isn't an overlap of services today, there will be one in the future. Axel Axel Sanders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted July 13, 2007 Share #23 Posted July 13, 2007 Andreas, could you please add your list of "Leica" foreign domain-names to this thread, the ones you presented to Leica during your meeting in Solms? It would give the LUG-readers a more complete documentation. ...please don't bother on my account... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aXs Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share #24 Posted July 13, 2007 ...no law against registering a Leica url... zapp, thank you for your opinion refering to foreign "Leica" domain names - but if you are also thinking about domain names in Germany, then read what Andreas - admin - has to say about it. Axel Axel Sanders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aXs Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share #25 Posted July 13, 2007 ... best I can tell... the Leica name is owned by... Donaher corp... . they own the microscope division... donaher is a tool company controlled by the Rales brothers... "Leica" is registered several times...] Alan, thanks for the information. Maybe part of Leica's registration-rights (for the US market) goes back to the the time right after the war. Most of the companies based in Germany lost the trademark rights for the US market. Maybe this has something to do with it. I recall reading somewhere that the huge chemicals corporation Bayer/Germany had to "buy back" their own name and trademark from an American company. Thanks for your effort - and for posting your TM search on this thread. Record List Display Back to my question: What do you think? Could any private camera-user/collector, camera re-seller, eBay-reseller - just register "Leica"? Axel Axel Sanders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUF Admin Posted July 13, 2007 Share #26 Posted July 13, 2007 Hi, Andreas, you should feel lucky because Leica didn't hire Steve Jobs as their CEO ... or they'll go after every domain name starting with a "L" ... like they're doing now with an "i". LOL I could live with that if I could watch what Steve Jobs would do with Leica... ]Back to my question: What do you think? Could any private camera-user/collector, camera re-seller, eBay-reseller - just register "Leica"? My answer again: Registering is easy but the brand holder can take it away very quickly. For those of you able to read German - a new article from SPIEGEL ONLINE: http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,494224,00.html Q&D translation: Judges block bloggers. Everything said is applicable directly to forums - no combination of brand names with 'blog' allowed. This decision was made by the OLG Hamburg known for hard decisions... Last but not least - Leica Domains. Just take a look here: http://domain-search.domaintools.com/?q=leica&bc=25&bc=rows&de_search=Search&bh=A&filter=y&pool=A And these are only active international domains containing "leica" in any form... Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted July 14, 2007 Share #27 Posted July 14, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello Luigi Bertolotti, first, I want to tell you that I love your beach portraits of your daughters. And I also enjoyed reading your tales of romantic-adverture with a briefly owned Leica Noctilux - back at a time when you were a young man in the Dolomite mountains. But I also read your story about the tragic fate of the owner of a camera shop in your home town who commited suicide (and your emotions for having purchased from this same man, his Leica lense dating back from wartime WWII). I think eveytime you hold that lense in your hand and do photography with it, you'll remember this man who previously owned the lense. Back to my question: Could any private camera-user/collector, camera re-seller, eBay-reseller - just register "Leica"? I understand your opinion is: " in Italy... you can absolutely do it..." To check your theory about Italy - I googled "Leica", "Italy" and looked at the Leicatime Luigi Crescenzi : leica cameras leica compur mp elmar 250 reporter leicavit. The URL contains the name "Leica" and pictures on the website display leather products branded "Leicatime" with a similiar "Leica"-like logo-script - so I guess you're right about things in Italy. Thanks Luigi. Axel Axel Sanders Yep, Axel, the Leicatime example I think is a confirmation of my opinions... Crescenzi of Rome is a nice guy who sells Leica items... exploits the Leica name a lot through the Net in a field strictly related to Leica Co. business... how they would have a reason to find a way to forbid it ? As other say, thing would be different if he would run some sexy shop... But the reason for I quoted the nice old Leica name as is engraved in LTMs is just for I thought exactly of Leicatime business... at the moment, he sells a line of fine leather bags with that old logo engraved... Leica Co. doesn't sell similar items... but if one day they'll do it ? Maybe they could argue that Crescenzi has not the right to put the Leica name, expecially with that lettering, on a product they have nothing to do with, for which Crescenzi doesn't pay them any royalty...mmmhhh... maybe he could have some problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aXs Posted July 14, 2007 Author Share #28 Posted July 14, 2007 ...the 'Leicatime' example is a confirmation of my opinions... ['Leicatime' products by Luigi Crescenzi of Rome, Italy]... he exploits the Leica name... in a field strictly related to Leica Camera AG business... the engraved 'Leica' script-logo... is exactly the same as 'Leicatime'... he [Crescenzi] sells a line of leather products... with the [historical] engraved logo... luigi bertolotti, thank you again for your opinions and information about the market situation in Italy. But Leica Camera AG has always manufactured and sold handsewn real-leather camera bags and camera straps etc. branded with the Leica name. The new 'Leica D-Lux 3' digital camera has an elegant accompanying handsewn real-leather camera bag with real-leather straps - and display the historical 'Leica' script-logo. There is also a wide assortment of camera bags for Leica M7, MP and M8 cameras. Look at the products of Leica's Flagship: http://www.leica-camera-berlin.com After you mentioning this 'Leicatime' example, I checked the name 'Luigi Crescenzi' and/or 'Leicatime' at Leica's official website - http://www.leica-camera.com - neither name is listed as an authorised Leica camera dealer. Concusion: your example http://www.Leicatime.com is a case in point: Who really owns the 'Leica' brand? The Consumer or the Shareholder(s)? Axel Axel Sanders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 14, 2007 Share #29 Posted July 14, 2007 The shareholders own the Leica brand. Whether the company choses to pursue independent companies exploiting the brand name is entirely up to the company. Clearly, in this case, as with others, Leica are not too bothered. Unless, of course, leicatime pay Leica a royalty for the use of the name that you don't know about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 14, 2007 Share #30 Posted July 14, 2007 ...Leica Co. doesn't sell similar items... but if one day they'll do it ? Maybe they could argue that Crescenzi has not the right to put the Leica name, expecially with that lettering, on a product they have nothing to do with, for which Crescenzi doesn't pay them any royalty...mmmhhh... maybe he could have some problem. The script "Leica" as a logo is registered as a US trademark to: Leica Technology BV CORPORATION NETHERLANDS Verrijn Stuartlaan 7 2288 EK Rijswijk (ZH) NETHERLANDS. This is a subsidiary of the Donaher company. Donaher had sales of more than $9.5 billion in 2006. Shareholders and customers have no independent rights to use the trademark. It is up to the owner of the trademark (Donaher) to decide if an infringement is worth taking action against. It could be that it is a licensed use, they are unaware of it, or it doesn't bother them. Donaher could certainly take action against any shareholder, company, or individual who uses the trademark without authorization. Some companies such as Disney are famous for protecting their trademarks, whereas others don't put out so much effort. Why should we care? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aXs Posted July 15, 2007 Author Share #31 Posted July 15, 2007 ...in this case, as with others, Leica are not too bothered... thank you for your personal opinion, but may I remind you, I started this discussion about the 'Leica' name being used for digital-products/services and part of a domain name/website. Following Leica Camera Forum's recent name change (and new URL), I became curious. Later, as you know, Andreas (admin) informed the Forum that he "...had to ask Leica Microsystems GmbH as brand holder [for a license to use the Leica name] - and - "...they don't want 'Leica' to be used as part of a foreign domain..." ...unless, of course... pay Leica a royalty for the use of the [domain]name that you don't know about... Moderator, if your opinion is that "Leica Camera AG are not too bothered...", what about Leica Microsystems GmbH? Please note, that the issue about "royalties for 'Leica'-branded leathergoods" was suggested by another Forum member. Therefore, your reply should be directed to him. This thread regards 'Leica' domain names and digital-products/services. Axel Axel Sanders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 15, 2007 Share #32 Posted July 15, 2007 This is an open, public forum, to which many people contribute to many threads. Any replies I make are not necessarily to you personally, just because you started the thread. I am at a loss to see where you are going with this one. I don't know whether Leica care about people using their name, and frankly, I don't care very much either. It's nothing to do with me. If they were Apple, then their lawyers would be all over people making use of their name ( I have a friend whose website was closed down by Apple lawyers because it was computer related and had "Apple" in the name ), but Leica don't seem to be too concerned. And please, less of the "Moderator". Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted July 15, 2007 Share #33 Posted July 15, 2007 Good grief. Does it matter? And how do you reconcile dismissing Andy's "personal opinion" with asking Andreas for his? If the owner of the brand cares, the owner of the brand can take appropriate legal action. If the use of the brand name is "benevolent", and does not threaten the integrity of the brand nor the profits made by the original brand holder, then why bother? It is free publicity. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted July 15, 2007 Share #34 Posted July 15, 2007 Later, as you know, Andreas (admin) informed the Forum that he "...had to ask Leica Microsystems GmbH as brand holder [for a license to use the Leica name] - and - "...they don't want 'Leica' to be used as part of a foreign domain..." Which answers your original question regarding who owns the name. End of discussion? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted July 15, 2007 Share #35 Posted July 15, 2007 yep..better to end these sparse discussions on brands - logos - domains and so... nothing bad... they are simply a consequence of the fact that many of us (me included. of course) put a certain aura about these symbols... I can't see some kind of red circle with a script without immediately thinking of.... And, as for me, was surprised when saw the fine Luigi's cases with the old style Leica engraving... my first thought was "nice work... nothing to object by Leica Co. ?...."; anyway, I didn't know about the Danaher rights... this can explain why, at the moment, none seem so preoccupied to protect brand/logo usage by third parties... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Flatline Posted July 15, 2007 Share #36 Posted July 15, 2007 You are essentially discussing I.P. Law, (Intellectual Property) of which Trademarks are a sub-set. Simply put: IP Law is always evolving, esp. in a world where brands far exceed the reach of country borders. I.P. Laws are a question of money. A company will always have to weigh how it affects their business over the short term, and the long term. "How much is that person earning off our brand?" "Could we be earning a piece of that?" "Are his actions affecting our brand and it's perception by customers in the marketplace?" "Is it feasible to stop him from using our name, and is it even worth our time and money?" If it's an eBay seller specializing in you brand, chances are he's a fan, and trying to create a product perception that is as valuable as possible. You'd probably want to leave him alone, and even support him. If the person is using your name to reflect your brand's name on an inferior product that could be closely associated, you'd want to take control of that quickly. For instance, if a vendor started making and selling cheap reading glasses and calling them Leica glasses, you'd want that stopped a.s.a.p! There are laws, but I.P. Law is constantly evolving, and hard to police. It needs to be decided in courts, and then only matters for that particular jurisdiction. A law in Germany only matters to Germans, and people residing in countries that have certain treaties in place - like the EU for example. Some guy with a factory in China is not having sleepless nights about using someone elses intellectual property for himself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 15, 2007 Share #37 Posted July 15, 2007 Axel Rose the Gun's n Roses front man chose is name as an anagram of Oral S... Our fellow member's join date is 1st April..... When I get time I'll put the name into some anagram busting program, but - and I might be entirely wrong here - I smell a troll! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Gruyters Posted July 16, 2007 Share #38 Posted July 16, 2007 In Australian thoroughbred racing we have a tradition of horses with Leica used in their name. Two that come to mind are Leica Lover and Nothin' Leica Dane. Both were top class 3 year old colts.There are many others. Just thought I'd add this vital piece of trivia. Regs, PJG. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted July 16, 2007 Share #39 Posted July 16, 2007 Leica Falcon's storming win in the Winning Edge Presentation Stakes ****** Early Melbourne Cup favourite Leica Falcon is out of the famous race after suffering a tendon injury to his near side front leg.... lack of Dutch carriage Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aXs Posted July 17, 2007 Author Share #40 Posted July 17, 2007 ...thoroughbred racing... have a tradition of horses with Leica used in their name... Leica Lover and Nothin' Leica Dane... there are many others... thought I'd add this vital piece of trivia. thank you Paul - I personally find trivia about thoroughbred racing and horses much more interesting than trivia about some popstar's lyrics (see posting by earleygallery). The names mentioned "Leica Lover" and "Nothin Leica Dame"... sound great! also Imants' (stnami) "Leica Falcon" horse news. Now back to the thread's main theme... Axel Axel Sanders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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