SL2 + ProResRAW?

[simon_hsn]

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Dear community, 

 

in the upcoming SL2 I am looking for a perfect hybrid camera (=focus on both photo AND video). For me, this is the perfect complement to my M. 

 

- In terms of PHOTO quality I am perfectly fine with the current SL offering, i.e. 24 MP, viewfinder quality, usability & size (I want a reasonably sized professional camera). 

- However, VIDEO has become increasingly more important and this is where the SL does not cut it FORE ME anymore.

 

I would like to see: 

 

  1. A reliable video autofocus that works as good as dual pixel AF or phase detect AF. 

  2. IBIS (IBIS is indeed more important for me in terms of video as it is for photos)

  3. Video quality = Codec

 

         - We have it already for photo, so it is equally useful for video: RAW VIDEO RECORDING: I have learned about ProRes Raw and that it does not require strong camera processing power as this process will be done later by the computer. 

 

I am not an engineer but I would be interested if someone can comment on whether this is a reasonable dream? 

 

Thanks!

Edited August 31, 2018 by simon_hsn

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[BernardC]

The problem with ProRes RAW is that it's only compatible with Apple's Final Cut software. It won't become a serious option until the other major video editing suites support it (Adobe Premiere, Avid, Resolve). Apple has not yet indicated that they are prepared to share the CODEC with competitors.

 

That being said, there are other RAW video formats out there that Leica can use. CinemaDNG is the obvious one. They could also make their own, like Canon did (they call their format "Cinema RAW"). The key point here is that the format should be open to third-party implementations.

 

As far as processing power is concerned, it's not that big a deal. BlackMagic's new 4K camera has enough power for RAW processing and only costs $1300 US. Storage is a bigger issue. Ideally the next SL should allow on-board RAW storage. This would require a much faster storage format. I would love to see them go straight to M.2 SSDs (even if it's only available with an optional battery grip).

[meerec]

And what is wrong with using Final Cut Pro NLE ? — my fave environment!!’

[lx1713]

And what is wrong with using Final Cut Pro NLE ? — my fave environment!!’

 

Maybe people remember Apple's Aperture app and other apps so total commitment can be a restrain.

Edited September 1, 2018 by lx1713

[BernardC]

And what is wrong with using Final Cut Pro NLE ? — my fave environment!!’

Nothing wrong with using Final Cut Pro, it's a top-tier product. The problem is that ProRes RAW can only be used in this NLE. Most other formats are supported across multiple platforms.

 

Being tied to a vendor-specific format is OK for a single-person operation, but it will rule-out a camera for bigger productions. It's easier to change the camera than to change the whole post-production workflow.

[Irakly Shanidze]

Not as much ProRes RAW, as even SL feeds uncompressed footage via HDMI, which can be recorded to an external recorder in any desirable format. Albeit more expensive, this is a much more flexible option.
What it really needs is 60fps 4k

[Irakly Shanidze]

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Nothing wrong with using Final Cut Pro, it's a top-tier product. The problem is that ProRes RAW can only be used in this NLE. Most other formats are supported across multiple platforms.

 

Being tied to a vendor-specific format is OK for a single-person operation, but it will rule-out a camera for bigger productions. It's easier to change the camera than to change the whole post-production workflow.

 

In a multi-user production workflow only a colorist needs to deal with RAW files. His output can easily be ProRes HQ, or anything else for that matter. Editing and sound do not require RAW footage.

[BernardC]

In a multi-user production workflow only a colorist needs to deal with RAW files. His output can easily be ProRes HQ, or anything else for that matter. Editing and sound do not require RAW footage.

True enough, but someone needs to make proxy files for the editor, and that can only be done in Final Cut Pro if you shoot in ProRes RAW.

Someone has to conform the proxies back to the RAW files after editing.

If the colourist doesn't use Final Cut (it's not really a full-fledged colouring suite), someone needs to re-export the original RAW files to a format that the colourist can use. It's doable, but adds quite a few round trips to FCP, and the colourist can't work with the RAW files directly.

 

Once again, it's all doable, but many productions won't bother. Time is money, and this workflow is more expensive and more time-consuming.

 

On a related note, BlackMagic just announced their own open-source RAW format. They are the only ones to support it so far, but it's likely to end-up in Premiere and Avid, and maybe even FCP. Being open-source, it's sure to be supported by open-source editing suites like kdenlive and OpenShot.

It's still early days, but someone at Leica should be considering this format for the next SL, and even for the current one if they can add it to the firmware.

[simon_hsn]

So, at CES Nikon announced a partnership with Atmos that allows for true ProRes Raw Recording over HDMI, see https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/01/08/atomos-prores-raw-recording-from-the-nikon-z7-and-z6/

I keep my fingers crossed for the SL2 to offer the same feature: this would be a true game changer for me!

[simon_hsn]

The newly announced Panasonic S1H will eventually also support ProResRaw over HDMI (https://www.diyphotography.net/atomos-is-working-with-panasonic-to-develop-prores-raw-video-for-the-panasonic-s1h/)

I hope that Leica engineers consider this trend for implementation in the SL2. 

[BernardC]

They haven't specifically said that the RAW format would be ProRes. It could be V-RAW, like Panasonic's Varicam cinema camera.  The advantage of that would be compatibility with a broader range of tools.

[BernardC]

Just to be clear, my guess is that Atomos will support a range of RAW formats. ProRes for those who only use Final Cut, and other formats for the rest of their customers. It would be great if they supported BM RAW, but BM and Atomos are competitors, so it probably won't happen.

[Irakly Shanidze]

On 8/30/2019 at 11:43 AM, BernardC said:

Just to be clear, my guess is that Atomos will support a range of RAW formats. ProRes for those who only use Final Cut, and other formats for the rest of their customers. It would be great if they supported BM RAW, but BM and Atomos are competitors, so it probably won't happen.

why one would need BMRaw in a recorder when BMPCC4K does it internally?

[Aaron Daniel]

Any update on this with the recent Ninja V firmware update?

[simon_hsn]

There will be no ProResRaw available for the SL2. There is an interview with a Leica rep where they mentioned that they prioritized internal 10 Bit 4.2.2. recording over external recording. 

Ergo, I would like to see a 24 MP SL2 version with the abiliity to output ProResRaw over HDMI, just like the Panasonic S1H,& S5. 

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, simon_hsn said:

I would like to see a 24 MP SL2 version with the abiliity to output ProResRaw over HDMI,

One of the recent Leica interviews mentioned that RAW made little sense with a 47MP sensor, because it would be re-scaled. ProRes 422 HQ gives you almost the same flexibility in post, and it's what most big-budget productions use.

I guess the other option would have been 8K RAW (un-scaled), but nobody does that over HDMI yet, so there are probably technical limitations.

[Photoworks]

On 8/31/2018 at 11:00 AM, simon_hsn said:

Dear community, 

 

in the upcoming SL2 I am looking for a perfect hybrid camera (=focus on both photo AND video). For me, this is the perfect complement to my M. 

 

- In terms of PHOTO quality I am perfectly fine with the current SL offering, i.e. 24 MP, viewfinder quality, usability & size (I want a reasonably sized professional camera). 

- However, VIDEO has become increasingly more important and this is where the SL does not cut it FORE ME anymore.

 

I would like to see: 

 

  1. A reliable video autofocus that works as good as dual pixel AF or phase detect AF. 

  2. IBIS (IBIS is indeed more important for me in terms of video as it is for photos)

  3. Video quality = Codec

 

         - We have it already for photo, so it is equally useful for video: RAW VIDEO RECORDING: I have learned about ProRes Raw and that it does not require strong camera processing power as this process will be done later by the computer. 

 

I am not an engineer but I would be interested if someone can comment on whether this is a reasonable dream? 

 

Thanks!

Contrast AF will be always Contrast AF,  it ever harder for the camera to focus when the profile is L-Log and raw video would be too.

ProresRaw it is always with external recorder. and the file size is so large that very few people actually use it.

In the movie industry less the 20% actually shoot raw. most people shoot Prores even on the Alexa.

Black magic raw can be compressed and captured on SD card with excellent quality.

IBIS is already good on SL2