M10-P - No Instruction Manual In the Box

[feelssadman]

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I doubt anyone will be using an M10 in 50 years!

 

Say that to the man who said in 1967 that no one will be using an M4 in 2017. And here we are still using M2 and M3.

[ianman]

Say that to the man who said in 1967 that no one will be using an M4 in 2017. And here we are still using M2 and M3.

 

M2s, M3s and M4s don't have circuit boards, and don't require batteries.

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[AlanJW]

The M10-P manual is here:  http://en.leica-camera.com/Service-Support/Support/Downloads?category=93710&subcategory=151610&type=&language=93871

 

There is a quick start guide included with the camera.

 

The OP was not wrong to complain, and he was treated very poorly.  Sure some new members come on to troll, but this one wasn't a troll, a legit question.  I don't think it is right to attack unless it is clear there is trolling.  People come with legitimate questions and there should be satisfaction in helping people out, not trashing them

 

As an old fart, I like scrolling through manuals and having them for reference.  I do it for cameras and cars, and I read appliance manuals too. 

[ianman]

 

There is a quick start guide included with the camera.

 

The OP was not wrong to complain, ...

 

I don't agree. It's about time we stopped wasting resources and got used to a paperless world. Just stop and think for a second what is involved in the whole process of printing a manual.

From cutting the trees, transport of the log, processing the wood, making the paper, printing, shipping the manuals to Leica, then added weight in the box, etc. The carbon footprint must be pretty massive... for a manual. Sorry but you don't need a manual to show you how to change the shutter speed or how to insert a battery... but maybe that's covered in the provided quick start guide though... just in case.

 

Not only are Leica doing the right thing by cutting down on wasted printing, I think they should also cut down on some of the pretty but useless packaging materials too.

 

And you can just as easily use a PDF for "scrolling through" documentation... it's even better than a hard copy because you can search within it too.

Edited August 27, 2018 by ianman

[AlanJW]

I don't agree. It's about time we stopped wasting resources and got used to a paperless world. Just stop and think for a second what is involved in the whole process of printing a manual.

From cutting the trees, transport of the log, processing the wood, making the paper, printing, shipping the manuals to Leica, then added weight in the box, etc. The carbon footprint must be pretty massive... for a manual. Sorry but you don't need a manual to show you how to change the shutter speed or how to insert a battery... but maybe that's covered in the provided quick start guide though... just in case.

 

Not only are Leica doing the right thing by cutting down on wasted printing, I think they should also cut down on some of the pretty but useless packaging materials too.

 

And you can just as easily use a PDF for "scrolling through" documentation... it's even better than a hard copy because you can search within it too.

 

I don't disagree about resources and the good reasons for not printing for every box.  While I read manuals, I always end up with the pdf because it is actually more useful than the paper.  Perhaps it is the "complaint" part.  Perhaps the OP could have simply asked where to get a manual and perhaps we could have simply pointed the OP to the download link, without personally attacking him.  I have found this forum to be enormously helpful but sometimes the nastiness interferes.

[ianman]

I saw no personal attacks!

[earleygallery]

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The OP was not wrong to complain, and he was treated very poorly. Sure some new members come on to troll, but this one wasn't a troll, a legit question. I don't think it is right to attack unless it is clear there is trolling. People come with legitimate questions and there should be satisfaction in helping people out, not trashing them

 

 

Good grief! I suggest you read the thread from the top again. The OP must be very easily offended. Nobody said anything personal and I don’t know how you could tell from a first time visitors first post how they weren’t trolling.

 

I thought they were joking tbh.

 

Outrage over a pdf manual? That Leica will post on request? Really? I do hope they manage to cope with some of life’s more testing challenges.

[AlanJW]

Good grief! I suggest you read the thread from the top again. The OP must be very easily offended. Nobody said anything personal and I don’t know how you could tell from a first time visitors first post how they weren’t trolling.

 

I thought they were joking tbh.

 

Outrage over a pdf manual? That Leica will post on request? Really? I do hope they manage to cope with some of life’s more testing challenges.

Why don't we give new posters the benefit of the doubt rather than assume that all first timers who have a complaint or a question are trolls? Is this a closed club with hazing for new members?  I will, however, concede that the OP could have framed his post as a question rather than a complaint. 

[earleygallery]

I still don’t see what anyone said to upset him. He didn’t ask a question but made a statement of his opinion. I’m not sure what kind of responses he was expecting.

[pico]

Sorry, what do we not agree on?. 

The fact he threw a hissy fit or the fact he wants to be deleted from the forum.

Both. I enjoy your contributions too much to make an issue

of this, so may we put it aside, Sir?

Edited August 27, 2018 by pico

[IkarusJohn]

Looked like mockery to me.

 

I don’t really think it was a reason for him to be offended. What too many people assume is that Leica is a big luxury company, presumably because it is old and sellshigh quality, expensive products. So, whenever things don’t go the way THEY want, or something goes wrong (defective products), it doesn’t fit well with what they expect from a luxury brand (I don’t know, Mercedes Benz, Ferrari or Rolex) - for the price, they expect to be pampered. They deserve it.

 

Nothing could be further from reality. Leica is tiny, by comparison to such luxury brands. I strongly suspect that most of their pricing is cost driven, rather than market driven, and when things go wrong they try hard to do the right thing. I buy their products because I like them, Leica has a different approach to how it conceives those products, and when I send an email to a senior executive, I get a reply. I don’t expect perfection, and in general they do the right thing (sometimes it takes a while).

 

So, yes looked like a hissy fit to me, and a bit of mockery not out of line. Leica isn’t the only manufacturer to put their manuals online - I’d rather they put the effort into writing something useful in them and undating them with firmware upgrades ...

[pico]

This discussion raises, to me, the question of of product price compared to company service. Is there

a threshold? I am looking for an automobile for my mate. Nothing I find makes sense, but

that could be my particular intellectual shortcoming.

 

Buying brand new is a loosing proposition. Although I can afford anything I simply cannot abide by the

economics, the depreciation. Call it principal. If I buy her, for example, a $100,000 vehicle I expect

cradle-to-grave service in the most timely fashion. I doubt such is available anywhere.

 

Funny, but it seems to make more sense to buy her multiple vehicles to rotate in and out of service.

 

I do that with Leicas! Keep in mind that to many, a $10,000 camera is an end-point, the

greatest expense they can imagine for a camera. Loosing it to service for months is

simply unacceptable, insane, a shame on Leica.

Edited August 27, 2018 by pico

[IkarusJohn]

I agree.

 

For cars, I buy either new or low mileage (eg ex-demo). They come with 3 years of free servicing, and the servicing is good. I can usually do a deal which works for me on trade-up or cash. The premium of new/ex-demo is spread over the life of the vehicle (I try to keep my cars in good condition and hold them for as long as I can), and the service cost credited pretty much nullifies the new car depreciation.

 

I agree that Leica’s QA (does it actually have ISO or similar QA accreditation?) and QC needs attention, and the time it takes to repair things can be problematic. To be fair, though, the biggest delays are things like having to replace practically every CCD sensor on its M9 series cameras. CS in Wetzlar is generally friendly, helpful and actually not that slow if you approach your issues in the right way.

 

When I’ve had an issue, I’ve contacted them first and asked when they can deal with the problem (assuming I can continue to use the camera or lens in the interim). I then send the item directly to Wetzlar, and not through the local dealer network - I pay the shipping, but it gets to Wetzlar quicker and I can monitor its progress. The slowest part of this is clearing German customs. I then email CS to make sure they have the item. I get an estimation of how long repairs will take, and then I wait, like everyone else. But at least I know what’s happening. I then monitor the shipping ot the item back, and again it’s German customs which seems to take the longest. Shipping from Koeln to NZ takes a few days (depending on the shipper), and I can clear customs here and pay GST while the item is en route.

 

I have sent a lot back (sometimes defects, sometimes issues I’m responsible for) - CS have always been helpful, but yes slow. Perhaps not as slow as Geman customs, but you do get the impression that Leica could invest more in CS.

[pico]

I agree that Leica’s QA (does it actually have ISO or similar QA accreditation?)

Wow! How can we find out?

 

I am not an expert, but some of the issues that pass through Leica Germany from

Portugal suggest that no QC occurs in Germany. Maybe Leica has a 'good enough' QC

to appease the majority. That is how it works. The majority are easily appeased,

not critical so what they get is good enough for their inexpert use. How unlike

that is for old time Leica buyers. Time is slipping away

Edited August 27, 2018 by pico

[earleygallery]

Just a thought, why don't Leica upload a manual into the camera menu? Updates would be automatic with firmware updates. Problem solved.

[ianman]

Just a thought, why don't Leica upload a manual into the camera menu? Updates would be automatic with firmware updates. Problem solved.

 

Bit of a bugger to read on the M-D!

[earleygallery]

Bit of a bugger to read on the M-D!

 

Good point. Perhaps Leica can offer an upgrade to fit them with an LCD?

[ianman]

The M-D-P 

[earleygallery]

M-D-Pdf ?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[mmradman]

Good point. Perhaps Leica can offer an upgrade to fit them with an LCD?

What about film M cameras, M7, MP and M-A, they are still manufactured.