M11 for me Posted August 16, 2018 Share #401 Posted August 16, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) What do you look at to come to your conclusion? I look at you Smugmug pictures on the iPad though. But I can not see a difference. The M10 should be better :-((( Sorry, I was too quick. You are right when showing the crops. But did you focus properly on the M10? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 16, 2018 Posted August 16, 2018 Hi M11 for me, Take a look here Really “Is it the end of M road”?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Chaemono Posted August 16, 2018 Share #402 Posted August 16, 2018 But let's say you absolutely, positively have to read every single street sign in the pictures you took then the α7R III is your camera. Accept no alternatives. Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-8pL8zB/ Sony (towards the right) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! M10 (struggling, at least the way I handheld it and focused with the rangefinder) Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! M10 (struggling, at least the way I handheld it and focused with the rangefinder) ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/287168-really-%E2%80%9Cis-it-the-end-of-m-road%E2%80%9D/?do=findComment&comment=3573592'>More sharing options...
adan Posted August 16, 2018 Share #403 Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) Thanks, Chaemono. I assume that is the "v.4" In any case, another Leica lens appears to "out-resolve" a 24Mp sensor. At least in the center. We progress. Edited August 16, 2018 by adan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted August 16, 2018 Share #404 Posted August 16, 2018 Yes, it is. I’ll try to do a few more during the weekend. At higher ISO and with the M lenses stopped down the Sony will do better. I still always grab the M10. It’s faster to use, focus peaking with the Visoflex is very precise, a pain with the Sony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted August 16, 2018 Share #405 Posted August 16, 2018 In any case, another Leica lens appears to "out-resolve" a 24-MP sensor. At least in the center. Sigh. Lenses don't out-resolve sensors. Please stop propagating this bullshit. We progress. Yeah—backwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted August 17, 2018 Share #406 Posted August 17, 2018 Of course lenses can out-resolve sensors (and vice-versa, for that matter). Lens resolution is a quantifiable value (a number). One can measure it with a chart such as below, in line pairs per mm. We can call it RL. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Sensor resolution is a quantifiable value (a number). One can measure it with such a chart, or calculate it from the pixel dimensions. X pixels per mm, or to avoid artifacts, the Nyquist frequency of 1/2(X pixels per mm). Call it RS. As such, one of three conditions must exist: RL = RS, RL > RS, or RL < RS. Chaemono's pictures above, and the ones from Onasj linked to by Jon Warwick, demonstrate exactly that. The 75 Nocti @ f/5.6, and the 35 Summicron-M @ f/2, have center resolution (at least) greater than the M10's 24 Mp sensor can reproduce, but is visible on a 42Mp sensor. RL > RS, for RS = 160 ppi/80 lppm. Thereby proving your previous claim that a larger number of megapixels can reveal more detail. If a lens cannot out-resolve a given sensor, your whole argument for more megapixels falls apart. We can just stick with 6 Mp sensors, since (per your statement above) no lens can out-resolve a sensor. 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Sensor resolution is a quantifiable value (a number). One can measure it with such a chart, or calculate it from the pixel dimensions. X pixels per mm, or to avoid artifacts, the Nyquist frequency of 1/2(X pixels per mm). Call it RS. As such, one of three conditions must exist: RL = RS, RL > RS, or RL < RS. Chaemono's pictures above, and the ones from Onasj linked to by Jon Warwick, demonstrate exactly that. The 75 Nocti @ f/5.6, and the 35 Summicron-M @ f/2, have center resolution (at least) greater than the M10's 24 Mp sensor can reproduce, but is visible on a 42Mp sensor. RL > RS, for RS = 160 ppi/80 lppm. Thereby proving your previous claim that a larger number of megapixels can reveal more detail. If a lens cannot out-resolve a given sensor, your whole argument for more megapixels falls apart. We can just stick with 6 Mp sensors, since (per your statement above) no lens can out-resolve a sensor. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/287168-really-%E2%80%9Cis-it-the-end-of-m-road%E2%80%9D/?do=findComment&comment=3573725'>More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted August 17, 2018 Share #407 Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) How about you've taken a picture of a beautiful flower bed but when you come home you actually want to pick just one single flower from it to print large? Well, you can with both but you can better with the Sony. At f/2.0, both equally sharpened and lens profile applied and vignetting at +20 for the Leica and +30 for the Sony. Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-8pL8zB/ Sony Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited August 17, 2018 by Chaemono Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/287168-really-%E2%80%9Cis-it-the-end-of-m-road%E2%80%9D/?do=findComment&comment=3573735'>More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted August 17, 2018 Share #408 Posted August 17, 2018 Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-8pL8zB/ M10 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/287168-really-%E2%80%9Cis-it-the-end-of-m-road%E2%80%9D/?do=findComment&comment=3573737'>More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted August 17, 2018 Share #409 Posted August 17, 2018 And now the crops. Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-8pL8zB/ Sony Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/287168-really-%E2%80%9Cis-it-the-end-of-m-road%E2%80%9D/?do=findComment&comment=3573738'>More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted August 17, 2018 Share #410 Posted August 17, 2018 Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-8pL8zB/ M10 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/287168-really-%E2%80%9Cis-it-the-end-of-m-road%E2%80%9D/?do=findComment&comment=3573739'>More sharing options...
Foxtwo Posted August 17, 2018 Share #411 Posted August 17, 2018 Or you could find an amazing flower and compose your image accordingly in the field, using your foot zoom and photographic knowledge. I thought that Lloyd was a bag of gas before I even considered purchasing a Leica. Still do. Just another self-important photographer that doesn't understand his place in the "Great Configuration of Things". Whatever your view might be on any of this, go enjoy photography. Arguing on forums is not enjoying photography. Blogging is not enjoying photography, it's almost universally soliciting attention or agitating for monetary reasons. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted August 17, 2018 Share #412 Posted August 17, 2018 If I wanted to compose, I’d use a cellphone. I have a Sony because I like to crop, a lot. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted August 17, 2018 Share #413 Posted August 17, 2018 ... one of three conditions must exist: RL = RS, RL > RS, or RL < RS. Sure. But what you (most people, actually) fail to understand is how the image resolution RI depends on both the lens' and the sensor's resolutions: 1/RI = 1/RL + 1/RS So no matter which of the three conditions cited above holds—a better lens will always increase the final image resolution. And a better sensor will always increase the final image resolution, too.Therefore, lenses cannot out-resolve sensors, and sensors also cannot out-resolve lenses. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 17, 2018 Share #414 Posted August 17, 2018 Simple to prove who is right. Uea lens of which we are certain that its resolution is lower than that of both sensors. Repeat Chaemono's experiment. Does the image of the higher resolving sensor improve detail rendering or not? If Olaf is right you'll see an improvement. If Andy is right, one will not. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted August 17, 2018 Share #415 Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) What irritates me is the following: Did we not read in an M10 thread a few months ago how the M10 engineers had to design the sensor in a specific way to match best the M-lenses. At that time we could read some sort of agreement or conclusion that the 24Mp were kind of optimum for our M-lenses. There were several posts saying that we needed after all more resolution. These posts were turned down: This seemed technically not possible. Now after all we see some examples with the exact same M-lenses on different cameras where we have better results on a 40Mp Sony sensor that on the 24Mp Leica (designed) sensor. This leads me to thinking that an M10 with the Sony sensor built in instead of the very specialized Leica sensor with its special micro lenses would bring better results. Is this now a contradiction? Edited August 17, 2018 by Alex U. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willemr Posted August 17, 2018 Share #416 Posted August 17, 2018 Since we moved in to the mathematical part of the discussion, might I suggest to do these tests in a studio with at least a tripod, shutter remote and constant lighting. Slow shutter-speeds, motion-blur, unintended high (auto) ISO etc. tend to introduce unwanted results. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted August 17, 2018 Share #417 Posted August 17, 2018 ... This leads me to thinking that an M10 with the Sony sensor built in instead of the very specialized Leica sensor with its special micro lenses would bring better results. Is this now a contradiction? ... It's not as straightforward as it's been made to look and I don't agree with the premise in your question. Pete. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 17, 2018 Share #418 Posted August 17, 2018 Indeed. That discussion has.very little to do with sensor resolution. It is about filter stacks, micro lenses and such. The sensors are generally made by the same or at least one of few manufacturers and generally on the same machines by ASML. Leica uses Sony sensors from time to time and the CL sensor performs better with Leica lenses than Sony does. Because it was tuned differently. Leica designed for Leica, Sony for Sony. Camera makers are wel aware that the real difference is the lens. The sensor is just the recording medium, nothing more and thus subordinate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted August 17, 2018 Share #419 Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) What irritates me is the following: Did we not read in an M10 thread a few months ago how the M10 engineers had to design the sensor in a specific way to match best the M-lenses. At that time we could read some sort of agreement or conclusion that the 24Mp were kind of optimum for our M-lenses. There were several posts saying that we needed after all more resolution. These posts were turned down: This seemed technically not possible. Now after all we see some examples with the exact same M-lenses on different cameras where we have better results on a 40Mp Sony sensor that on the 24Mp Leica (designed) sensor. This leads me to thinking that an M10 with the Sony sensor built in instead of the very specialized Leica sensor with its special micro lenses would bring better results. Is this now a contradiction? There have only been two comparisons posted so far showing performance in the center and the spinning is already starting. As stated, the corner performance of M lenses on the α7R III stinks even at the 75 mm focal length unless one uses a Kolari mod. More pictures to come that show this, just because you insist. Plus, there are two lens systems for the M-mount that Leica needs to consider in the design of the M sensor, M and R. See here: http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-future-of-sensor-technology-at-leica.html?m=1 “However, with the Leica M-System two different lens systems had to be equally usable. The short focal lengths of the M system have a main beam angle up to 35, while the R lenses with larger focal lengths have a much smaller beam angle. Consequently something special had to be done. By reducing the distance between the photodiode and the microlens an enlarged pixel aperture was achieved. At the same time the refractive index of the microlenses was changed to the extent that any microlens offset was no longer necessary. This made the sensor less sensitive to the influences of the lens, and thus equally usable for both M and R lenses. An advantage was gained by using a different design for the microlens covering the entire sensor. Instead of using the common flat lenses, Leica went to an elongated, parabolic design. That has the advantage that more of the incoming light will be redirected to the individual pixel areas and, especially at the corners, there will be no noticeable vignetting.” It was mentioned by others here that Leica likely approached Sony and Sony was unwilling to do these modifications to supply the sensor for the M10. The CL sensor, however, is probably from Sony. @willem, absolutely. But I can only do tripod and remote release and it will likely be over the next few weeks. @Jaap, I don’t know if I can find a lens with low enough resolution but I’ll try. Edited August 17, 2018 by Chaemono Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted August 17, 2018 Share #420 Posted August 17, 2018 OK, I'll use that traditional equation unless/until I find a better one. Solving it to get actual resolution rather than its reciprocal, we get: RI = 1/(1/RL + 1/RS) or RI = (RL*RS)/(RL+RS) That's rather depressing, though, in that plugging in some numbers, it requires a sensor to have a resolution of 6400 lppm, to get just 79 lppm of image resolution RI from an 80 lppm lens (it would require "infinite" sensor resolution to get 80 lppm exactly - asymptotic equation). Sensor resolution of 6400 lppm on 24 x 36 "FF 35mm" = 35,389 megapixels. Yes, a better lens will always increase the final image resolution, and a better sensor will always increase the final resolution - but the final image resolution will always be worse than either the resolution of the lens alone or the sensor alone. However, it does not follow that "a lens cannot out-resolve a sensor." The fact that (8 *4)/(8+4) = 2.667 does not change the fact that 8 is larger than 4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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