Really “Is it the end of M road”?

[pgk]

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Given the number of 'Special Editions' that Leica have produced and the 'a la carte' program that used to exist, I would have thought that a very basic specification M camera which is manual only and has the least possible but most relevant digital features (like full review data) would be a simple enough camera to build, and one which could stay in production as a 'purist's' camera.  It could be marketed as the 'essence of the M' which combines the original concept of the M series with the relevant but no more advantages of digital technology. I can see this as a small but steady seller much as the current film cameras are.

[jaapv]

Given the number of 'Special Editions' that Leica have produced and the 'a la carte' program that used to exist, I would have thought that a very basic specification M camera which is manual only and has the least possible but most relevant digital features (like full review data) would be a simple enough camera to build, and one which could stay in production as a 'purist's' camera.  It could be marketed as the 'essence of the M' which combines the original concept of the M series with the relevant but no more advantages of digital technology. I can see this as a small but steady seller much as the current film cameras are.

Now that I would trade my M9 for...

[dkmoore]

This camera already exists in the M10. If you don't want the live view you can get the M262. If you don't want a screen at all you can get the M-D.

[farnz]

Regrettably not, the M262 and M-D are based on the M240 not the M10 so they have the M240's additional dimensions and lack the M10's improved RF/VF.

 

Pete.

[jaapv]

This camera already exists in the M10. If you don't want the live view you can get the M262. If you don't want a screen at all you can get the M-D.

AFAIK the M10 has Live View, EVF option, EV compensation, AE, Auto ISO, etc.

[IkarusJohn]

Yes, and so is video. Look at the CL. The video can easily be ignored and does not bloat the camera. Many users (including Steve Huff) don't even know it is there. The only outward signs are two small holes and an LCD pictogram. No one has complained about its presence - that is a very specific bee in some very vocal M bonnets.

 ...

More accurately, the absence of video from the M10 camera is a very specific bee in a minority of vocal M bonnets ... you raise it at every opportunity. Your CL (you do have a CL?) meets the need you have for video and stills, as does the still available M(240).

 

The M is all about its optical viewfinder - fixed focal point, limited focal lengths etc etc The M10 is a return to the purity of the M system.

 

Time to let it go?

[dkmoore]

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The sensor is different but I guess part of my point is that Leica could very easily do that with the M10 line (M-D, 252) and in the future come out with two M cameras at the same.

 

I don’t know who pointed it out but you can ignore EC, LV, and the screen anyway.

 

You can even get the vintage inspired half case that Leica made that covers the rear screen! Instant M-D10.

[jaapv]

You could ignore video - and if it is switched off on the M240 the button won't even function... But that had to go... The mere presence was offensive.

[jaapv]

More accurately, the absence of video from the M10 camera is a very specific bee in a minority of vocal M bonnets ... you raise it at every opportunity. Your CL (you do have a CL?) meets the need you have for video and stills, as does the still available M(240).

 

The M is all about its optical viewfinder - fixed focal point, limited focal lengths etc etc The M10 is a return to the purity of the M system.

 

Time to let it go?

Quite - I am out of the M system - much to my regret, the M9 and MM are my last  M cameras for specific uses. I would have preferred to be able to keep using an M as my main camera after forty years of loyal use. My complaint of lack of video is nothing to the lobby that managed to block the progress of the M system. On grounds that, to me, appear completely irrational. Purity indeed... Purity would be a digital M3.

I agree that the EVF L mount cameras are Leica's future - the M will probably fade away, unless Leica manages to reverse the trend.

[IkarusJohn]

Oh, I think that’s a gross over statement - you’ve used M cameras for 40 years, yet video was only available in one camera for 4 of those 40 during which you’ve still had your M9 and Monochrom.

 

The success of the M10 rather belies your prediction ...

[jaapv]

Wel, Leica isn’t telling, but I’m happy for any success they have. I wonder how many new users it is pulling in, though.

[Jeff S]

Quite - I am out of the M system - much to my regret, the M9 and MM are my last M cameras for specific uses. I would have preferred to be able to keep using an M as my main camera after forty years of loyal use. My complaint of lack of video is nothing to the lobby that managed to block the progress of the M system. On grounds that, to me, appear completely irrational. Purity indeed... Purity would be a digital M3.

I agree that the EVF L mount cameras are Leica's future - the M will probably fade away, unless Leica manages to reverse the trend.

The M has bucked the trend of other digital systems, and yet remained (presumably) successful (however Leica defines success). There are currently several variants, apart from film, and that will likely remain the case. Whether sales will diminish significantly in the near term, given its aging followers, remains to be seen. If and when that happens, Leica can decide to ‘modernize’ it or let it die. I think that’s still a ways off; the M is core to the legacy. And I think video could well be incorporated in one of the future variants, particularly if it’s feasible in the smaller M10 form factor.., but I don’t think that’s inevitable, or required at this stage. A hybrid finder may be a higher priority, if technology ever permits a no compromise solution.

 

Jeff

[Jon Warwick]

I’d guess the success of the M10 owed mainly to finally squeezing electronics into a body that was the size of an M analogue camera - especially after complaints about the “bloated” M240.

 

Now that the body size of the digital M is resolved with the M10, and given so many people here say “24mp is enough”, and assuming the optical viewfinder is sacrosanct ......it does beg the question of what more can be done to perfect the M .....hence taking us back to the question of whether the M is close to the end of its road?

 

What I’m saying is if everyone wants the M to be so pure in its simplicity, there is a danger that a lack of technological advancement will make it less and less worthwhile ever “upgrading” into new M versions in the future ....

[dkmoore]

Was the M10 really a step backwards or even a step toward a purist camera? I guess I don't see it that way.

 

FWIW, I believe the M10 does signal progress.

 

Same functionality (except video) as M240 in smaller body = advancement

Upgraded rear screen = advancement

Upgraded EVF (while not great definitely better than prior)

Better sensor (better ISO, colors, AWB, etc)

Better ISO access = advancement

Better menu system

Wifi (not great) = advancement

And more..

 

I wouldn't call an omission (video) a step backwards or even a step sideways. I can certainly see why some would be turned off by this if they want/need video.

 

That being said, the only real advancements that would bring the M into the "future" would be a built in hybrid OVF/EVF and add video back with 4-8k.

 

All of the Sony A7 cameras are minor iterations of the original A7 and we all believe Sony is pushing the envelope. Leica advanced the M10 incrementally as much as Sony the A7R to A7RIII.

[bocaburger]

Quite - I am out of the M system - much to my regret, the M9 and MM are my last  M cameras for specific uses. I would have preferred to be able to keep using an M as my main camera after forty years of loyal use. My complaint of lack of video is nothing to the lobby that managed to block the progress of the M system. On grounds that, to me, appear completely irrational. Purity indeed... Purity would be a digital M3.

Why if video is the dealbreaker did you decide to keep your M9 instead of 240?

[farnz]

Was the M10 really a step backwards or even a step toward a purist camera? I guess I don't see it that way.

 

FWIW, I believe the M10 does signal progress.

 

Same functionality (except video) as M240 in smaller body = advancement

Upgraded rear screen = advancement

Upgraded EVF (while not great definitely better than prior)

Better sensor (better ISO, colors, AWB, etc)

Better ISO access = advancement

Better menu system

Wifi (not great) = advancement

And more..

...

For my money you've omitted the most important step forwards - the improved RF/VF that improves the very essence of the M.

 

Pete.

[dkmoore]

Hi Pete,

 

I was too long winded you lost interest and didn’t read the 5th paragraph that I discuss the EVF/OVF.

 

I didn’t mention adding 8000 shutter speed, which would be a welcome addition/advancement.

[evikne]

I didn’t mention adding 8000 shutter speed, which would be a welcome addition/advancement.

 

I need 1/32000 sec. (or ISO 25) to use my Noctilux in sunlight. That would be an advancement. 

Edited August 14, 2018 by evikne

[IkarusJohn]

Wel, Leica isn’t telling, but I’m happy for any success they have. I wonder how many new users it is pulling in, though.

 

 

Judging by the profits which Leica announces, it seems to be doing something right (compared to other photography divisions of the larger producers).

 

It looks like they have stopped production of many of the M variants, B&H lists only:

• M10
• M(240)
• M(262)
• M(246)
• M-A

I know that's not definitive, but it is indicative.  Interestingly, the black M-A is its No 1 Best Seller (omitted internal meter, provided almost 50 years ago in the M5 and then in the M6 & M7, which is now discontinued).  Who'd have thought film is dead?  I don't buy the M camera dying predictions for a second.  It's because it has less than Sony, Panasonic etc that it has appeal.  

 

Photokina and the months that follow will be interesting - if Leica follows past trends, the M10 series will include:

• M10-P (hopefully better named than that)
• Monochrom
• M-D (with EVF live view and WiFi)

Not sure there is a place for a 262 version of the M10 (the M(262), another camera that offers less than technically possible), but it is a popular camera apparently.  Leica could add to that line up with an internal EVF version, with video, but honestly, I doubt they will.  That is the territory of the L mounts, and they do it well.  I found Jared's comparison of the SL, CL and M10 in another thread illuminating.

 

As for the M11, why would Leica not provide further advancement?  There will be better dynamic range, better processors, better batteries (click in/click out like the TL & SL), they'll lose the baseplate  , better WiFi ... there's more to technological advancement than MP ...

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[farnz]

Hi Pete,

 

I was too long winded you lost interest and didn’t read the 5th paragraph that I discuss the EVF/OVF.

 

I didn’t mention adding 8000 shutter speed, which would be a welcome addition/advancement.

 

Well, no, dk, I didn't lose interest and I did read your 5th paragraph but that was about future advancements for the M line rather than the sep forward that the M10's RF/VF already is over other M's.

 

Pete.