Leica M7 now discontinued

[Anbaric]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I thought the M6 meter is exactly the same as the MP meter and they are certainly still available.

I've heard that the M6 Classic meter can be replaced by the MP meter, but the same isn't true for the M6 TTL, which has to be compatible with the 'reversed' shutter speed dial, the extra 'off' position (separate to 'B'), and of course TTL flash.

[semi-ambivalent]

Why do you believe production was "officially stopped"? Just because leicarumors.com says so?

I agree here, but leicarumors.com is rather good at this sort of thing. That said, yes, let's wait and see what comes out of Wetzlar.

[semi-ambivalent]

In the recent Luminous Landscape interviews at Leica, it was even stated by Leica themselves that they only have ONE person assembling and servicing analog cameras in Wetzlar, because it takes a special skillset that almost nobody has. So if that one person is hit by the buss, or decides to get a different job, or retires, then... Well.

Maybe this guy:

 

Of all the components in a film M, the electronically controlled shutter of the M7 might very well be the "weakest". If the meter in an MP goes out the camera still works beautifully. I once made a remark here that Leica could eventually offer only a single film camera just for the efficiencies to be gained. That would be either the M-A or an M-A ALC; get rid of the electronics altogether.

Edited May 26, 2018 by semi-ambivalent

[Tom R]

Don't be silly!

 

Thousands of Leica shooters today are selling, acquiring, and using M3, M2, M4, M6 etc. cameras and have them serviced on a regular basis. So even if the M7 really was discontinued now, how would the situation for M7 shooters be any different from those who are happily using M models discontinued decades ago?

 

Well, if I understand correctly, the electronics are problematic. A fair number of highly skilled, qualified technicians can CLA M2, M3, ...., up to M6 cameras, but the M7, if I understand correctly, has only one manually available shutter speed in the event of an electronics problem (or a dead battery). It's likely true, by the way, that M6 and the M6TTL can only be repaired for mechanical problems as the circuit boards, etc, are no longer made or are available.

 

On that note: I have several M4-P bodies and was recently looking to replace parts for one and was told by Leica that the part I needed was no longer being manufactured.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Tom R

[hoppyman]

I have had no problems sourcing batteries here.

 

 

If true I would seriously consider getting another M7.  It may not have the iconic status of the MP or MA, but for me the aperture-priority auto makes it a most versatile camera.

As far as I can recall there were two different battery types that would work and the problem was some mercury content used in one style. Nothing to do with weapons component. My M7 was my second Leica going back 12 years or so and the film M that I used the most and became very fond of. Eventually sacrificed for the M8. One of the ones with an uncommon marking (Betriebsk) but no internal difference. Yes, wish I could have kept it 

Edited May 26, 2018 by hoppyman

[hektor]

Interesting quote from someone "in the know":

 

The mechanical film-loading Leica cameras (M-A and MP) are being made in Portugal behind doors on the old machinery.  Many parts are still produced by third-party companies somewhere in Germany.  The manufacturing difference between the M-A/MP and the M7 is simply the electronic control of the shutter.  Discontinuance simply implies that these components are no longer manufactured and what has been manufactured will be kept as spare parts.  The film-loading cameras are mainly bought by far-eastern customers who do not like the M7.  Sales of this model have been very low (relative to the already very low quantities of the full range).  I assume that the full production run only lasts a few weeks and then there is enough in stock for the rest of the year.  Presumably the M-A is being produced continuously, but at a very low daily volume, perhaps five a day. I was told that the sales volume of all film-loading cameras is below 1000 a year.  There should be enough M7 cameras in stock for the rest of its intended lifecycle.

[wlaidlaw]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I hope, probably in vain, that Leica has tucked away or made arrangements for a future supply of spare parts for the M7 and us M7 owners are not going to be left in the extremely unsatisfactory position of M6TTL owners, of having an expensive brick when the circuit card fails. The failure is usually either from tracking between circuit tracks from damp or the natural age deterioration of capacitors.  I have said in the past that if it were up to me, I could source a new supply of M6TTL circuit cards within a month. All Leica has to do is send a working sample card, the circuit diagram and specs to one of a number of far eastern companies who specialise in reverse engineering of obsolete circuit cards. I would guess that the cards would have a FOB cost of less than €5 each, quantity dependant. How would Leica track down such a company in the far east - simple just look here http://www.asia.manufacturers.globalsources.com (my sister used to be the publisher when it was a paper publication). 

 

I have just bought an M4-P to have as a fall back, if the electronics of my M7 fail, as sadly, I have no confidence that Leica will either want to or be able to supply spare parts for the M7. You can't even buy a spare circuit card and tuck it away for future use, as they deteriorate more quickly if not powered up. I am wondering if it makes sense to keep my M7 over the winter period, in a box with a silica gel bag. I have two large sacks of reformable (2 hours in a 120ºC oven) silica gel, which sit inside my 1977 Porsche 911RSR rally car over the winter, to keep the interior condensation free. 

 

Wilson

[wattsy]

I have just bought an M4-P to have as a fall back, if the electronics of my M7 fail, as sadly, I have no confidence that Leica will either want to or be able to supply spare parts for the M7. You can't even buy a spare circuit card and tuck it away for future use, as they deteriorate more quickly if not powered up. I am wondering if it makes sense to keep my M7 over the winter period, in a box with a silica gel bag. I have two large sacks of reformable (2 hours in a 120ºC oven) silica gel, which sit inside my 1977 Porsche 911RSR rally car over the winter, to keep the interior condensation free.

I don’t think there is any danger that the M7 will be unrepairable for at least 10 years. The problem IMO will be the cost involved in any repair and it my prove cheaper to simply buy a used M7. Surely it is better to enjoy the M7 now rather than worry about what might happen and mollycoddle the camera and/or put it in special storage?

[Steve Ricoh]

I hope, probably in vain, that Leica has tucked away or made arrangements for a future supply of spare parts for the M7 and us M7 owners are not going to be left in the extremely unsatisfactory position of M6TTL owners, of having an expensive brick when the circuit card fails. The failure is usually either from tracking between circuit tracks from damp or the natural age deterioration of capacitors.  I have said in the past that if it were up to me, I could source a new supply of M6TTL circuit cards within a month. All Leica has to do is send a working sample card, the circuit diagram and specs to one of a number of far eastern companies who specialise in reverse engineering of obsolete circuit cards. I would guess that the cards would have a FOB cost of less than €5 each, quantity dependant. How would Leica track down such a company in the far east - simple just look here http://www.asia.manufacturers.globalsources.com (my sister used to be the publisher when it was a paper publication). 

 

I have just bought an M4-P to have as a fall back, if the electronics of my M7 fail, as sadly, I have no confidence that Leica will either want to or be able to supply spare parts for the M7. You can't even buy a spare circuit card and tuck it away for future use, as they deteriorate more quickly if not powered up. I am wondering if it makes sense to keep my M7 over the winter period, in a box with a silica gel bag. I have two large sacks of reformable (2 hours in a 120ºC oven) silica gel, which sit inside my 1977 Porsche 911RSR rally car over the winter, to keep the interior condensation free. 

 

Wilson

Supply of electronic components is likely to be an issue as they have a relatively short design life, such as a complex component within the circuit design for shutter speed calculation (and execution). It's typical for component fab houses to withdraw or replace components after a relatively short interval (< 5 years) after issuing a planned obsolescence notice. It's up to OEMs such as Leica to up-purchase stock for their intended production run - 16 years is a long time for electronics manufacture - or redesign the circuit card to use current technology.

[pgk]

I'd guess the bottom line is that if you have an M7 (I've never owned an M7 though I've been tempted) then you need to use it and enjoy it now rather than worry about its life expectancy. If we could foretell the future we'd be rich enough to buy lots up .....

[willeica]

Electronics have written a new paradigm for consumer goods. The concept of repair is generally one that is applied early in the product cycle. After that, replacement is seen as the best 'repair'. This is true for all electronic consumer goods, including kettles, microwave ovens, television sets, phones and, of course, cameras. It seems that there is no going back on that situation at this stage. I don't know how long other forum members intend to live, but at 68 I reckon that my fully mechanical Leicas ranging from my I Model As from the 1920s to my M6 (I have an M 7 as well) will see me out. I am not sure, though, how long my electronic Leicas will last, although, ironically, my M10 is now back in Wetzlar having its broken lens release button repaired under warranty. With my mechanical Leicas, I don't need a meter, I can use any other meter, including the Light Meter App on my iPhone which will, of course, be getting replaced in the not too distant future. The Light Meter App should, of course, continue to exist. 

 

The world has changed and it does not look like we will going back any time soon. Some people are already shouting for an M11.

 

William

[wlaidlaw]

There is a large cottage industry in China, which has grown up making spares for electronic bits and/or repairing circuit cards, where manufacturers no longer care to supply or charge through the nose for doing so. At the lower strata of Chinese society, there is not the level of disposable wealth to support a throw away society, so they have had to evolve their own system of make and mend.  Why not take advantage of this to source electronic spare parts for our cameras. They might not meet Leica's no doubt stringent standards for the cards when originally specified but it would be better than having a brick instead of a camera. 

 

It would not be hugely complicated for the three major Leica repairers in the USA to get together with the four or five in Europe to source for example, M6TTL cards from Asia. In fact it could be a profit centre for them. I was offered a new and unused Platinum M6TTL anniversary kit with the matching Summilux 50 V.3 at a very good price. Did I buy it? No because a camera which has been sitting unused for 20+ years is highly likely to develop circuit card problems and then you are totally stuck. I bought an M7 instead, on the basis that it was still in production  . 

 

Wilson

[Steve P]

I hope, probably in vain, that Leica has tucked away or made arrangements for a future supply of spare parts for the M7 and us M7 owners are not going to be left in the extremely unsatisfactory position of M6TTL owners, of having an expensive brick when the circuit card fails. 

I'm an M6TTL owner, and when my light meter packs up I'll dust off my Sekonic meter and carry on regardless. Unlike the M7, the M6TTL will continue to function at all shutter speeds in much the same way as an MA does. Inconvenient, sure, but hardly a brick.

[ianman]

I could be wrong, but I saw the interview and didn't understand what was said in the way you do.

 

I understood it as though many people are involved in the assembly of a digital camera, a film camera is assembled by one person from start to finish. They didn't mention that there is only one person assembling film cameras.

This is the part where they talk about the assembly lines...

 

https://youtu.be/SGu_yeQT-Y0?t=5m7s

 

So, does he mean one person in the whole company? Or one person per analog camera (and there could be many)? I understand it as the second case, particularly in the light of what is mentioned just before about the order volumes of analog cameras increasing.

[wattsy]

This is the part where they talk about the assembly lines...

 

https://youtu.be/SGu_yeQT-Y0?t=5m7s

 

So, does he mean one person in the whole company? Or one person per analog camera (and there could be many)? I understand it as the second case, particularly in the light of what is mentioned just before about the order volumes of analog cameras increasing.

I don’t know about building the cameras but I have been told by Leica that they only have a single employee doing film camera repairs.

[wlaidlaw]

I'm an M6TTL owner, and when my light meter packs up I'll dust off my Sekonic meter and carry on regardless. Unlike the M7, the M6TTL will continue to function at all shutter speeds in much the same way as an MA does. Inconvenient, sure, but hardly a brick.

 

From what others have said, when the circuit card fails, the whole camera does not work except at 1/60. I am only going on what was posted on RFF and have no personal experience. I thought the shutter was wholly mechanical and would carry on. Perhaps they were talking about with a flash. I have bought an extra MR-4 meter to use with my older battery free M cameras. 

 

Wilson

[MarkP]

It is not a given that an M7’s electronics will necessarily fail within a short time period. Many of us would have electronics that have worked flawlessly for years. My previous Nikon F3T’s electronics never failed in the 25 years I had it. My HP32S calculator, used almost daily (and dropped frequently) is still working perfectly 28 years later.

 

If my M7 fails in the future I will try to get it repaired and if not I’ll be sad for a while, move on and maybe get another second-hand one, or not.

 

I can’t be certain that if either of my Contax T3s fail in the future I can get them repaired but I don’t lose sleep over it.

 

It’s a bit like worrying I may contract a terminal disease some time in the future.

[MarkP]

It'll be interesting to see the secondary market as the years go on and these cameras age and are no longer serviced easily.

It hasn’t stopped the price of Contax T3s continue to rise even though Kyocera no longer service them, or the price of Leica lenses that were discontinued because some of their elements could no longer be sourced. Edited May 26, 2018 by MarkP

[semi-ambivalent]

I'm an M6TTL owner, and when my light meter packs up I'll dust off my Sekonic meter and carry on regardless.

Within the last month I have had to send my Sekonic 308 off for warranty repair after it, without any prior symptoms, refused to turn on. Fast service? Sure. Free? Sure. But I intend re-train my eye to determine exposure and fall-back to the latitude of modern film stocks to get an image. Should also learn the EV business on my wife's Weston meter.

 

Willeica's remark about consumer electronics is correct, and a wake up call, as is Leica's expending resources for things as simple as broken lens release buttons. Or neck strap lugs.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[wlaidlaw]

My M7 is on its second circuit card and shutter control, so I am not as optimistic about its longevity as others. Luckily this was done fairly recently and the earlier M7's shutter control did not have a good reputation in any case, so hopefully, I will get at least another 10 years out of mine. Interestingly in a similar manner to William's M10, my CL's lens release also failed (dropped out and its fixing screw jammed the lens in place) a few weeks after it was new and there was also visible debris inside the 18-56 lens, between the first and second groups. After being leant on by both myself and my dealer, Leica agreed to replace both rather than repair. 

 

Wilson