Otus vs SL Primes

[Guest VVJ]

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I'm glad they started with the pursuit of optical perfection. They released exactly the lenses I would get first.

 

But I agree some smaller lenses are needed. Some excellent f4.5 zooms for the landscape shooters and a set of Elmairit primes that are tiny (and maybe stabilised??).

 

Gordon

 

In a way I am glad as well.  I have been shooting with the 24-90mm for more than 2 years now.  If I continue a little bit longer like this the SL will be the cheapest camera system that I have ever owned... 

 

Two comments regarding the smaller lenses:

 

1)  Leica never built them for the S system (a mistake IMO).  What makes you think they will do so for the SL system?  

2)  Even if they do build them for the SL system, at the current pace of execution... and after putting out other reference prime lenses... they are probably at least 3-5 years away...

 

I love the SL with the 24-90mm, I honestly do, and I am willing to tolerate one monster lens but I do not want an arsenal of them... 

 

For travel, walkaround, etc you can turn the A9 or the X1D into a small(er) system using native lenses, you unfortunately cannot do that with the SL, IMO not a smart move from Leica.  

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[Guest VVJ]

Unlike Gordon, I’d rather have a system that while great, I’m more likely to carry, than to prioritize optical perfection.

 

+1.

[sillbeers15]

In a way I am glad as well. I have been shooting with the 24-90mm for more than 2 years now. If I continue a little bit longer like this the SL will be the cheapest camera system that I have ever owned...

 

Two comments regarding the smaller lenses:

 

1) Leica never built them for the S system (a mistake IMO). What makes you think they will do so for the SL system?

2) Even if they do build them for the SL system, at the current pace of execution... and after putting out other reference prime lenses... they are probably at least 3-5 years away...

 

I love the SL with the 24-90mm, I honestly do, and I am willing to tolerate one monster lens but I do not want an arsenal of them...

 

For travel, walkaround, etc you can turn the A9 or the X1D into a small(er) system using native lenses, you unfortunately cannot do that with the SL, IMO not a smart move from Leica.

I like Leica glasses. For that reason I stick to Leica cameras. For walk about reasons, I have the M10 and compact M lenses to complement my SL system. There are more alternatives as well, like Leica Q, CL or TL. If I can be happy with other glass, I would have already done so.

[Bill W]

I love my SL but I have found it very comfortable to "walk around" with my X1D and a couple of extra lens. If I am out with a tripod, I can carry the X1D on the tripod with lens attached and three lens in my Tenba Cooper 13 slim with Format Hitech filter kit. 

[IkarusJohn]

...

 

For travel, walkaround, etc you can turn the A9 or the X1D into a small(er) system using native lenses, you unfortunately cannot do that with the SL, IMO not a smart move from Leica.  

 

 

I'm not sure you need to use "native lenses" for travel and walk around (though I do use the 24-90 zoom for this purpose - no lens changing and weather sealed) - more critically, the SL is effectively a universal platform for Leica lenses.  You can use TL lenses (cropped), M lenses (no AF) and larger S lenses  in addition to the SL lenses.  For myself, if the size of the SL and 24-90 is an issue, then I probably wouldn't take the SL at all (favouring the TL2 or M camera).

 

The SL with M lenses is a very good compact camera, but I select that for other reasons (wanting to use the 21, 28 or 75 Summiluxes or the Noctilux 50).

 

Cheers

John

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Unlike Gordon, I’d rather have a system that while great, I’m more likely to carry, than to prioritize optical perfection.

 

Jeff

 

I'm no that bad, am I?  

 

Another of my first world problems....

 

I don't choose the SL because the lenses are optically perfect. I spent the first few months with no natives. I got the zoom for convenience and got spoilt by the total lack of CA. Same with the 50.

 

The SL lenses have MADE me far less tolerant of CA and PF. Now I've seen what can be done I can't un-see it on other systems.

 

And I do think the SL lenses draw really nicely. I much prefer the way they render to Sony, Canon or Nikon. Those look plastic compared to the SL lenses, to me. I think Leica have got both. Great optics and great character. Others may see that differently.

 

I wanted the S007 to have decent long exposures and no LENR. I shoot long exposures, a lot. The SL being mirrorless also meant I wasn't happy without an EVF. Hence the X1D. The XC lenses have less CA than the HC lenses. But I am quite happy with my HC lenses. Will I replace them with a superior lens when it arrives? Probably? But I'll keep the HC100, CA and all.

 

So it's Leica's fault.

 

Gordon

[LichtUndDunkelheit]

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So it's Leica's fault.

 

Thats pretty ironic, considering Leica is the only mainstream manufacturer who actually has lenses like the Thambar 90mm f2.2 or the Summaron 28/5.6.

 

Other companies, like Canon, Nikon etc, leave such 'imperfect' lenses to companies like Meyer Görlitz etc.

[geetee1972]

Are these lenses so "perfect" that they have lost all character? Are we entering the clinical era of photography? I was just looking at some images a guy posted wit the 35 Cron R on his SL, and they looked so well rounded and organic. Not razor sharp and brittle which is where we seem to be headed. Do we really need all this optical "perfection" for such an imperfect world? It's seems the manufacturers are targeting measurebators more than photographers these days.

This was precisely the tirade I went on when the SL50 was first released and I saw the images coming from it.

 

I was wrong though.

 

I think you need to be careful with the light you work with and the way you process the images with the SL50 as otherwise they will have a tendency to look to contrasty and oversaturated, but if you're careful the results are sublime.

[Jeff S]

I'm no that bad, am I?

 

Another of my first world problems....

 

I don't choose the SL because the lenses are optically perfect. I spent the first few months with no natives. I got the zoom for convenience and got spoilt by the total lack of CA. Same with the 50.

 

The SL lenses have MADE me far less tolerant of CA and PF. Now I've seen what can be done I can't un-see it on other systems.

 

And I do think the SL lenses draw really nicely. I much prefer the way they render to Sony, Canon or Nikon. Those look plastic compared to the SL lenses, to me. I think Leica have got both. Great optics and great character. Others may see that differently.

 

I wanted the S007 to have decent long exposures and no LENR. I shoot long exposures, a lot. The SL being mirrorless also meant I wasn't happy without an EVF. Hence the X1D. The XC lenses have less CA than the HC lenses. But I am quite happy with my HC lenses. Will I replace them with a superior lens when it arrives? Probably? But I'll keep the HC100, CA and all.

 

So it's Leica's fault.

 

Gordon

Gordon, I was only responding to your comment about the sequence of SL lens releases. You wrote... “I'm glad they started with the pursuit of optical perfection. They released exactly the lenses I would get first.” I feel the opposite, and would have much preferred the early release of smaller more portable native lenses. I never use adapted lenses, and in this case have a need for weather sealing and zooms in particular.

 

No attempt to critique your buying habits! We each choose what we like. Fortunately there are options. In this case, for me, the SL and X1D systems both tease, but still miss the mark on some of my high priorities. The SL, though, is ahead in the race, and I’ll decide this year. Maybe a new S or other product will enter the race, but that won’t affect my nearer term selection. Sometimes timing is paramount.

 

Jeff

Edited May 18, 2018 by Jeff S

[thighslapper]

Gordon, I was only responding to your comment about the sequence of SL lens releases. You wrote... “I'm glad they started with the pursuit of optical perfection. They released exactly the lenses I would get first.” I feel the opposite, and would have much preferred the early release of smaller more portable native lenses. I never use adapted lenses, and in this case have a need for weather sealing and zooms in particular.

 

No attempt to critique your buying habits! We each choose what we like. Fortunately there are options. In this case, for me, the SL and X1D systems both tease, but still miss the mark on some of my high priorities. The SL, though, is ahead in the race, and I’ll decide this year. Maybe a new S or other product will enter the race, but that won’t affect my nearer term selection. Sometimes timing is paramount.

 

Jeff

 

 

I can just imagine the comments if Leica had released the SL with a selection of small average/mediocre even slower primes and zooms....... 

 

Of course they could have delayed the camera till they had a full stable of lenses to fulfil the needs of the 'optical perfection' and the 'compact but ok' factions....... like till next year .....

 

They really can't win whatever they do.

[Jeff S]

I can just imagine the comments if Leica had released the SL with a selection of small average/mediocre even slower primes and zooms.......

 

Of course they could have delayed the camera till they had a full stable of lenses to fulfil the needs of the 'optical perfection' and the 'compact but ok' factions....... like till next year .....

 

They really can't win whatever they do.

Yeah, that’s what I was suggesting... average and mediocre lenses. Funny.

 

Of course we don’t know sales figures, but I bet they would have been higher starting with the full set of Summicrons, including the 35 and others. Then supplemented with a smaller zoom trio, of excellent optical quality, with IS. As I’ve written, I’d own the system if they were smaller and more like 21-35, 35-90 and 90-180. Great for travel. Who will routinely pack or carry the current trio?

 

I wonder how many people were clamoring for a 90-280 bazooka in advance of the SL launch. I bet most would have scoffed. (And I bet some who bought it mostly don’t use it). It’s funny how we rationalize and admire after the fact. If great quality, but smaller and more compact zooms had been released, I bet the forum would be praising them as much or more than the current group of stellar big ones. And loving their Summicron primes.

 

Jeff

[LD_50]

I use and pack the zoom trio. 16-35 just arrived yesterday. I won’t likely carry all three at the same time. Usually I pick a lens and shoot with it if walking around. If using a vehicle I’ll take them all and a tripod.

 

I was very happy to see the 90-280 as part of the system. I use it. I would use it even more if teleconverters were available. My most used Nikons were the 14-24, 70-200, 58, and 200. My SL system is looking similar.

 

Leica sales are not primarily held back by the size of the lenses or the selection or roadmap. The audience here wanting a Leica system that aligns with their specific needs has already gotten past the barrier for most- Price.

 

The Hasselblad X1D is seen as low price for medium format. That’s why they can get by with poor initial firmware, small selection of launch lenses, missing features, etc.

 

Take a historic name brand that people want to be seen with, make the system attractive and nice to hold/touch, and keep the price low and sales are there. Leica has everything but the price.

[sillbeers15]

I wonder how many people were clamoring for a 90-280 bazooka in advance of the SL launch. I bet most would have scoffed. (And I bet some who bought it mostly don’t use it). It’s funny how we rationalize and admire after the fact. If great quality, but smaller and more compact zooms had been released, I bet the forum would be praising them as much or more than the current group of stellar big ones. And loving their Summicron primes.

 

Jeff

 

 

The 90-280mm zoom is by far my most frequently used lens on my SL.

It is the lens I use to horn my skills to use it's AFC tracking and explore the limits on the AF capability of the camera. 

And I never once mounted the 90-280mm on tripod, always handheld.

[mmradman]

Yeah, that’s what I was suggesting... average and mediocre lenses. Funny.

 

Of course we don’t know sales figures, but I bet they would have been higher starting with the full set of Summicrons, including the 35 and others. Then supplemented with a smaller zoom trio, of excellent optical quality, with IS. As I’ve written, I’d own the system if they were smaller and more like 21-35, 35-90 and 90-180. Great for travel. Who will routinely pack or carry the current trio?

 

I wonder how many people were clamoring for a 90-280 bazooka in advance of the SL launch. I bet most would have scoffed. (And I bet some who bought it mostly don’t use it). It’s funny how we rationalize and admire after the fact. If great quality, but smaller and more compact zooms had been released, I bet the forum would be praising them as much or more than the current group of stellar big ones. And loving their Summicron primes.

 

Jeff

There is a thing about a Leica crowd, what ever is launched is always great and best ever.  Even APS-C camera  like CL appears to be pleasing ardent full frame users.

Following this thread i noticed several brave souls pledging to schlep Leica "Holly Trinity" of 16-35, 24-90 and 90-280 as these were three film cartridges, i wish them good luck. 

 

There was a time starting some 10 years ago and finishing not long after when i carried similar Nikon Trinity of 14-24, 24-70 & 70-200mm zooms with D700 & D300, last zoom also had added benefit of 1.4 and 2x teleconvertors    .  Later in pursuit of optical perfection i added 300mm f2.8 AFS VR lens.  Since than Nikon zooms & heavy prime have been sold and replaced with lightweight M lenses, also R lenses but these get into the open on special occasions.  Bulky L zooms leave me cold, out of current range one lens i would consider is APO Summicron L 75mm.  

[sillbeers15]

There is a thing about a Leica crowd, what ever is launched is always great and best ever.  Even APS-C camera  like CL appears to be pleasing ardent full frame users.

Following this thread i noticed several brave souls pledging to schlep Leica "Holly Trinity" of 16-35, 24-90 and 90-280 as these were three film cartridges, i wish them good luck. 

 

There was a time starting some 10 years ago and finishing not long after when i carried similar Nikon Trinity of 14-24, 24-70 & 70-200mm zooms with D700 & D300, last zoom also had added benefit of 1.4 and 2x teleconvertors    .  Later in pursuit of optical perfection i added 300mm f2.8 AFS VR lens.  Since than Nikon zooms & heavy prime have been sold and replaced with lightweight M lenses, also R lenses but these get into the open on special occasions.  Bulky L zooms leave me cold, out of current range one lens i would consider is APO Summicron L 75mm.  

 

 

I'm one who have the 16-35 / 24-90 / 90-280 native SL zooms,....I've also added the SL75.

I also keep my M21lux, M35lux, M50Noc, M90corn, R80-200, R-APO180Elm on my M10.

Do not need to sell, just keep adding... Oh, I do not own the CL or TL or Q.

 

One man's poison is another man's meat.

[mmradman]

I'm one who have the 16-35 / 24-90 / 90-280 native SL zooms,....I've also added the SL75.

I also keep my M21lux, M35lux, M50Noc, M90corn, R80-200, R-APO180Elm on my M10.

Do not need to sell, just keep adding... Oh, I do not own the CL or TL or Q.

 

One man's poison is another man's meat.

As i said, I wish you good luck, you have my admiration.  Now, when you go for a stroll with two out of three zooms and SL hope you back & shoulders thank you.  On second thought you being in Singapore have ready access to good back massage, enjoy.

[Chaemono]

If I have time I'll compare these two combos this weekend.

 

Optical perfection vs. a great compact system to carry? 

(ignore for now state of the art weather sealed body and lens for the Leica and that I had one of the Sony bodies die recently after being soaked by sea water - see post #93 here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/284201-m10-vs-sony-a7riii-iso-differences/page-5?do=findComment&comment=3520485)

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Edited May 18, 2018 by Chaemono

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Gordon, I was only responding to your comment about the sequence of SL lens releases. You wrote... “I'm glad they started with the pursuit of optical perfection. They released exactly the lenses I would get first.” I feel the opposite, and would have much preferred the early release of smaller more portable native lenses. I never use adapted lenses, and in this case have a need for weather sealing and zooms in particular.

 

No attempt to critique your buying habits! We each choose what we like. Fortunately there are options. In this case, for me, the SL and X1D systems both tease, but still miss the mark on some of my high priorities. The SL, though, is ahead in the race, and I’ll decide this year. Maybe a new S or other product will enter the race, but that won’t affect my nearer term selection. Sometimes timing is paramount.

 

Jeff

 

No offence. You speak the truth.

 

Yeah, that’s what I was suggesting... average and mediocre lenses. Funny.

 

Of course we don’t know sales figures, but I bet they would have been higher starting with the full set of Summicrons, including the 35 and others. Then supplemented with a smaller zoom trio, of excellent optical quality, with IS. As I’ve written, I’d own the system if they were smaller and more like 21-35, 35-90 and 90-180. Great for travel. Who will routinely pack or carry the current trio?

 

I wonder how many people were clamoring for a 90-280 bazooka in advance of the SL launch. I bet most would have scoffed. (And I bet some who bought it mostly don’t use it). It’s funny how we rationalize and admire after the fact. If great quality, but smaller and more compact zooms had been released, I bet the forum would be praising them as much or more than the current group of stellar big ones. And loving their Summicron primes.

 

Jeff

 

I agree entirely for general use. I'd buy a set of f4.5 zooms with IS and a couple of Summicrons in a heart beat. The SL body is a good size. Big enough but not too big. And I really like the range of the three you suggested.

 

For work the 24-90 and 90-280 combination is perfect for me. I use the long zoom all the time. I'm heading to Namibia is August and *if* unicorns brought me a 40MP SL I might take that instead of the X1D/A7R3 combo I'm considering at the moment. A WATE, 24-90, 90-280 and two bodies is 5 kg for 16-280mm. That's not too bad and I struggle to do that with any other 24x36mm system.

 

I would have probably bought the SL either way.

 

The Hasselblad X1D is seen as low price for medium format. That’s why they can get by with poor initial firmware, small selection of launch lenses, missing features, etc.

 

 

The SL firmware 1.0 was terrible as well. Hasselblad aren't the only company to rush a product to market.

 

There is a thing about a Leica crowd, what ever is launched is always great and best ever.  Even APS-C camera  like CL appears to be pleasing ardent full frame users.

 

 

I was scathing of the SL when it arrived. And the CL. Almost entirely on firmware. Both have had updates and both have improved. Neither is perfect, by a long shot.

 

But it's still the case that the lenses are class leading and the usability is brilliant. So we forgive or workaround some of the flaws.

 

Isn't that the same for every other system?

 

Gordon

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[geetee1972]

 

There is a thing about a Leica crowd, what ever is launched is always great and best ever.  Even APS-C camera  like CL appears to be pleasing ardent full frame users.

 

I think that's a trait of people in general and broadly speaking its true. You only have to compare any product today to say ten years ago to see the clear and obvious progress of things.

[mmradman]

I think that's a trait of people in general and broadly speaking its true. You only have to compare any product today to say ten years ago to see the clear and obvious progress of things.

Progress is evident all around us, today optics by any manufacturer are often more advanced than past predecessors. Other thing that comes with progress is it seems increase in size, only pointing that it needs to be acknowledged and rest is down to the stamina of individuals to carry wide range of focal lengths in one go. For me long walk is limited to capacity of Billingham Hadley Small with either M or SL kit in.