50 cron vs 50 lux asph - sharpness only

[jay968]

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This has probably been discussed many times but I have never really been satisfied with any of the discussions that I have read.

 

In terms of just sharpness first in the center of the frame, and then at the edges, do the current 50 summicron and current 50 summilux asph perform pretty much the same from F4 to F8?

I owned the Summilux at one time and sold it to fund some other gear, and when I was ready to come back to the 50, I picked up a cron instead thinking that since I do not use the 50 as much as my other lenses, why spend so much on the lux when the cron may be "good enough." Well, from what I am seeing, in the mid F-stop range, it's really better than good enough, it's actually VERY good. Maybe as good as the lux (?). I am actually seeing better sharpness from the cron in the center of the frame than I see using my 75 cron which has a reputation of being one of the very best Leica lenses made.

 

What is the general consensus? Between f4 and f8, how do the cron and lux compare sharpness-wise (only), both in the center and at the edges? Any real advantage to either?

Edited May 8, 2018 by jay968

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[a.noctilux]

Which camera ?

At which ISO ?

[jay968]

M10, 200 ISO

[Jeff S]

If the Summicron is “better than good enough”, stop looking and be happy. As you note, everyone has an opinion... it’s yours that matters. Both are fine lenses... one is faster. The only negative on the Summicron is a tendency to flare if not careful.

 

Jeff

[jip]

The Summilux-M is better than the Summicron as an all rounder in my opinion, but then again it's heavier and more expensive. I have both. I do hate the Summicron flare. 

[a.noctilux]

My opinion why I sold years ago Summilux asph. 50 but keep some Lux non-asph.(three in fact of different periods).

 

With 24MB sensor at base ISO:

- the Lux asph. I had show more curved field than Cron at f/2.8 and f/4 but from f/5.6 it's same, difficult to see differences

- as general rule (for me), from f/5.6 I can't tell one from another if 3D subject about 2m - 10m.

- yes every Lux 50 is less prone to flare than Cron 50, I don't understand why

[frame-it]

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the current summicron 50 is the APO right ? and its cheaper then the summilux 50 ASPH ?

 

 

The Summilux-M is better than the Summicron as an all rounder in my opinion, but then again it's heavier and more expensive. I have both. I do hate the Summicron flare. 

[james.liam]

the current summicron 50 is the APO right ? and its cheaper then the summilux 50 ASPH ?

Two current Summicrons, the circa-1979 Mandler design and the APO.

[frame-it]

aha...i didn't know that..thanks for the info

Two current Summicrons, the circa-1979 Mandler design and the APO.

[mmradman]

There 

 

the current summicron 50 is the APO right ? and its cheaper then the summilux 50 ASPH ?

There are total of five (5) current 50mm M lenses.  Listed in order of cost, cheapest first.

 

1. Summarit-M, 50mm f2.4

2. Summicron-M, 50mm f2

3. Summilux-M, 50mm f1.4 ASHP

4. APO Summicron-M, 50 f2 ASPH

5. Noctilux-M 50mm f0.95 ASPH

 

Edit, added ASPH & Noctilux

Edited May 8, 2018 by mmradman

[jay968]

If the Summicron is “better than good enough”, stop looking and be happy. As you note, everyone has an opinion... it’s yours that matters. Both are fine lenses... one is faster. The only negative on the Summicron is a tendency to flare if not careful.

 

Jeff

Why do you assume that I posed this question to determine which one I should own? My question is merely academic.

 

I am not asking about the APO cron. I do not own that lens and cannot afford to. I am talking about the standard cron 1929-current (I believe it's version V?).

I'm not interested in which is the better 'all rounder.' I'm not interested in which has better bokeh. I'm not interested in which controls flare better. I'm not interested in which is better wide open. I'm not interested in which is built better. I'm not interested in which is a better value. I'm not interested in which will provide better resale value,, nor which has better color, better rendering etc.

 

All I am asking about is opinions on which is sharper both in the center and at the edges in the f4 to f8 region (and maybe even limit that to 10 feet or so shooting distance).

 

I am very surprised at how good the summicron looks in that region and am just wondering whether the lux is considered to be even better there or not. Since I don't have both lenses to compare myself, I am asking here because I am sure some of you do own both and have compared.

Again, it's all purely academic. I am just curious.

Edited May 8, 2018 by jay968

[Jeff S]

Why do you assume that I posed this question to determine which one I should own? My question is merely academic.

 

I am not asking about the APO cron. I do not own that lens and cannot afford to. I am talking about the standard cron 1929-current (I believe it's version V?).

I'm not interested in which is the better 'all rounder.' I'm not interested in which has better bokeh. I'm not interested in which controls flare better. I'm not interested in which is better wide open. I'm not interested in which is built better. I'm not interested in which is a better value. I'm not interested in which will provide better resale value,, nor which has better color, better rendering etc.

 

All I am asking about is opinions on which is sharper both in the center and at the edges in the f4 to f8 region (and maybe even limit that to 10 feet or so shooting distance).

 

I am very surprised at how good the summicron looks in that region and am just wondering whether the lux is considered to be even better there or not. Since I don't have both lenses to compare myself, I am asking here because I am sure some of you do own both and have compared.

Again, it's all purely academic. I am just curious.

Where do you think I wrote about the APO Summicron? I distilled hundreds of other threads into the 2 biggest practical distinctions between the latest non APO Summicron and the 50 Summilux ASPH.... speed and flare.....whether you buy or not. Sharpness is a vague term.

 

Jeff

[jay968]

Where do you think I wrote about the APO Summicron? I distilled hundreds of other threads into the 2 biggest practical distinctions between the latest non APO Summicron and the 50 Summilux ASPH.... speed and flare.....whether you buy or not. Sharpness is a vague term.

 

Jeff

I wasn't responding to you about the APO Summicron. That's why I seperated my comment to you from the rest with a space in between. Sorry if you misunderstood my intent.

I appreciate that you mentioned speed and flare but the title as I had put it mentioned "sharpness only" and that is really all I am looking for. And yes it IS a vague term, I know. Just wondering what people have to say about it, that's all.

 

I SUPPOSE what I am hoping for is one of the following:

- The two lenses are just as sharp from f4 to f8

- No, the lux is sharper between f4 and f8

- No,  the cron is sharper between f4 and f8

 

If I had both I would test to find out myself ... again, just academic. I have no desire to trade the cron for the lux. The cron has a rendering which reminds me of Leica lenses that I used decades ago (with good reason).

Edited May 8, 2018 by jay968

[jaapv]

Sharpness is not an optical parameter and cannot be defined. It is an unanswerable question. Any opinion must necessarily be subjective.

[jay968]

Well maybe the term 'sharpness' is not a good one to use then. How about "resolving power" (and whether or not the difference as such between these 2 lenses is even noticeable?

 

I HAVE seen the following:

 

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/comparing-rangefinder-and-slr-50mm-lenses-version-0-7/

 

But it does not show results in the F4 to F8 range.

Edited May 8, 2018 by jay968

[pedaes]

Leica have there own MTF charts at f5.6, so why not look there. You will find them in the data sheets for individual lenses and they are downloadable.

Edited May 8, 2018 by pedaes

[onasj]

The easiest way in my opinion to get some answers to your question is to compare their MTF charts on Leica's webpage.  MTF values are not strictly speaking "sharpness" (in part because sharpness is a vague term that means different things to different people), but in my experience what I consider to be "sharpness" at different places in the frame at different apertures is very strongly correlated with Leica's published MTF values.

 

Also, stopped down to f/4-f/8, both of the lenses you ask about are likely to both perform very similarly, and quite well!

Edited May 8, 2018 by onasj

[jay968]

Thanks. Yes I have looked at MTF curves but admittedly I am not very good at interpreting them. Just thought maybe someone here has done the legwork and could provide insight.

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[Michael Geschlecht]

Thanks. Yes I have looked at MTF curves but admittedly I am not very good at interpreting them. Just thought maybe someone here has done the legwork and could provide insight.

 

Hello Jay,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

For a start:

 

The higher up that more of the lines are on the chart, the better the correction of the lens. The further to the right that they keep staying higher, the better the correction going away from the central axis.

 

Generally speaking, but not always:

 

The wider the angle of coverage of the lens & the larger the aperture: The closer to the left side, the lines start dropping.

 

Many lenses will not show as good results at larger apertures as they will at medium apertures like F5.6

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited May 9, 2018 by Michael Geschlecht

[Jeff S]

Thanks. Yes I have looked at MTF curves but admittedly I am not very good at interpreting them. Just thought maybe someone here has done the legwork and could provide insight.

I think this old LuLa post from Mike Johnston (now of TOP fame) might help you better understand lens contrast, resolution, etc, and how MTF charts fit in...

 

https://luminous-landscape.com/understanding-lens-contrast/

 

And one more from Roger Cicala (from lensrentals)...

 

https://wordpress.lensrentals.com/blog/2009/06/have-you-seen-my-acutance/

 

Jeff

Edited May 9, 2018 by Jeff S