Stepping over from a DSLR to an M8

[Bert Stynen]

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Dear Forum,

 

I’m a photo hobbyist and for several years I own DSLR’s, the latest being a Nikon D200, of which I’m very fond. Nevertheless, the M8 seems very appealing, all the more so now I’ve seen the recently posted comparison pictures between these two cameras.

 

Stepping over from a pampering D200 (auto-focus, auto-ISO, auto-everything, ...) to a no-nonsense-do-everything-yourself camera like the M8 is nevertheless very intimidating. I often read that the Leica is a back to basics camera. Well, given the choice, I like a safety-belt.

 

I took the test, and set my D200 to a completely manual mode (no auto-focus, no matrix-metering, etc ...). The result is very worrying, and even worse than for the first time driving a race car with a 7-speed manual gearbox, coming from an automatic. When taking my time, the shots are, half the time, more or less decent. For real-world photographs though, the ones the M8 is supposed to be made for, it’s a disaster. Somewhere I read that a Leica-M photographer, when seeing a picture opportunity, is supposed to be able to instantaneously preset correct focus, exposure time, aperture (and with the M8, ISO), lift the camera to his eyes, shoot, and that’s it. When I try to do this, certainly with moving objects, it spells disaster.

 

I truly fear that if I would buy an M8, I would soon regret not being able to really use this device, and put it on a shelf, just to admire it for its aesthetical qualities. And that would be a shame, certainly considering the hefty price-ticket.

 

Maybe it’s better to await the up-coming Nikon D3, pay a comparable price (I only need the body, not the lenses), (maybe) have the same excellent pictures as with the M8, and retain the electronic assistance. Or am I just being a coward, and should I take the plunge ?

 

Probably a lot of you own both DSLR’s and an M8, and grew up with automatic camera’s. What were your experiences when you gave up the electronic wizardry?

 

Thank you !

 

Bert

[popum]

Bert

 

Yup it is a learning curve... but not that intimidating. If I were you I would rent an M8 for a week or so to try it out... or buy an inexpensive film RF. It would be a shame to spend that much money and not use the camera (although you could always sell it).

 

I made the transition but do use my D80 with the 18-200 zoom from time to time when the situation is more in line with its capabilities than the M8's.

 

Good Luck

 

Mike

[earleygallery]

Somewhere I read that a Leica-M photographer, when seeing a picture opportunity, is supposed to be able to instantaneously preset correct focus, exposure time, aperture (and with the M8, ISO), lift the camera to his eyes, shoot, and that’s it. When I try to do this, certainly with moving objects, it spells disaster.

 

 

Huh? All you should need to do in most situations (assuming you use the camera on AE) is focus and shoot. OK if its not a grab shot an you have time you can consider the exposure & aperture first.

 

Even the focussing stage can be bypassed if you are using a wider lens and/or zone focus.

 

Having to consider all factors in making an image can only serve to improve your photography.

[Guest Bernd Banken]

Bert,

 

to understand the M8 as a system compare to your D200 let's take an example from the computer world:

 

The M8 is like Linux.

 

You have to take care not only to master the rangefinder you must handle filters, adapters, third party components etc. Compare to Leicas of the film days the M8 is a difficult horse in terms of color, whitebalance etc. You need more skills compare to DSLRs.

 

If you are good in every aspects the files are great...

 

Your D200 is like OSX from Apple. It's a round package together with additional components, system flashs and lenses for every part of photography.

 

Bernd

[woodda]

YOu will need both. DLSR for action and Macro work and nature photography. M8 is more enjoyable but if I was to go on safari I would need my DLSR.

 

Saying that go for M8 now and the D3 later, Use your D200 for then.

 

PS there is a steep learning curve and you will have to ecept some of its quirks

 

1. Range FInder accurcy.

2. No autofocus

3. No zoom

[ericperlberg]

I came to the M8 from shooting with a Canon 1dsII and L glass. My primary motive was to reduce the weight I was carrying around. However, the image quality of the M8 was a crucial factor in even thinking about the switch. And then secondarily I have a real fondness for:

a) the legacy and impact of Leica in the history of photography

the tactile pleasure of working with an M camera

 

The legendary Leica photographer you describe has learned a few tricks of working with a rangefinder that are hard to duplicate on my DSLR and I imagine on yours too. The idea is that you preset almost everything. This isn't hard to do (but of course its an art and experience helps). Leica lenses have very useful distance scales on them. Determine at what distance you'll likely be shooting at, eg 4-5 feet and set your distance scale appropriately (Google hyperfocal and understand it). Try to set your shutter speed to fast enough to stop action with whatever ISO you need to get the aperture size to supply you with enough depth of field to work in. It's all quite do-able. With the camera pre-set you can concentrate on what's going on immediately around you and start to anticipate events as they develop. You don't even have to bring the camera to your eye let alone focus or mess with exposure. It's all about seeing-shooting.

 

The M8 is a quirky camera and its easy to get nervous about how complicated it all is. The framelines don't allow for intuitive precise framing, the finder shows minimal info, only the exposure can be automated if you choose to work this way, you don't see the depth of field in the finder the way you do in an SLR etc. I adjusted to the point where in 4 months I've only used my 1dsII once. With all its quirks I've become very fond of using the M8 as a tool. I still like my 1dsII but I prefer to use the M8 for most things.

[charlesphoto99]

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Maybe best to stick with what you know. Or better yet, get some inexpensive (but very good IMO) Nikon manual focus lenses for the D200, leave the camera on all manual, and shoot that way for awhile until you get the hang of having to think about a # of things while you shoot. Honestly, even working with a dslr (I have a D200) I rarely use auto functions or even af as they never seem to do what I want the camera to do.

 

Once you get the idea of having to think quickly with an slr down, then move on to a rangefinder. It's really all about thinking quickly and intuitively and multi tasking, albeit in a compact and simple package.

 

But the Nikons may be what work for you - nothing wrong with that. Some of the best photojournalists working today have never picked up a Leica. It's the photographer that makes the shot, not the camera.

[Bert Stynen]

Thank you very much for the replies. It’s reassuring that most of you stayed with the M8 coming from the DSLR. I suppose that handling an M8 is more like painting. It requires a lot more skill, but in the end, if you get it right, it’s much more rewarding. I guess the best thing to do is, as Charles suggested, keep on practicing with my D200 on manual. I have some good 50mm and 24mm primes. Once my confidence has grown, I will consider acquiring the M8 (with a 50 mm Summicron 2.0 and a 28 mm Elmarit 2.8). I guess that (price / quality) these are the best choices.

I’ll keep you informed.

 

Bert

[total_recall]

I came to the M8 from shooting with a Canon 1dsII and L glass. My primary motive was to reduce the weight I was carrying around. However, the image quality of the M8 was a crucial factor in even thinking about the switch. And then secondarily I have a real fondness for:

a) the legacy and impact of Leica in the history of photography

the tactile pleasure of working with an M camera

 

The legendary Leica photographer you describe has learned a few tricks of working with a rangefinder that are hard to duplicate on my DSLR and I imagine on yours too. The idea is that you preset almost everything. This isn't hard to do (but of course its an art and experience helps). Leica lenses have very useful distance scales on them. Determine at what distance you'll likely be shooting at, eg 4-5 feet and set your distance scale appropriately (Google hyperfocal and understand it). Try to set your shutter speed to fast enough to stop action with whatever ISO you need to get the aperture size to supply you with enough depth of field to work in. It's all quite do-able. With the camera pre-set you can concentrate on what's going on immediately around you and start to anticipate events as they develop. You don't even have to bring the camera to your eye let alone focus or mess with exposure. It's all about seeing-shooting.

 

The M8 is a quirky camera and its easy to get nervous about how complicated it all is. The framelines don't allow for intuitive precise framing, the finder shows minimal info, only the exposure can be automated if you choose to work this way, you don't see the depth of field in the finder the way you do in an SLR etc. I adjusted to the point where in 4 months I've only used my 1dsII once. With all its quirks I've become very fond of using the M8 as a tool. I still like my 1dsII but I prefer to use the M8 for most things.

 

how do you get the legendary image quality of leica lenses (sharpness i guess) when you dont focus on the spot. makes me LOL.

[jonoslack]

Thank you very much for the replies. It’s reassuring that most of you stayed with the M8 coming from the DSLR. I suppose that handling an M8 is more like painting. It requires a lot more skill, but in the end, if you get it right, it’s much more rewarding. I guess the best thing to do is, as Charles suggested, keep on practicing with my D200 on manual. I have some good 50mm and 24mm primes. Once my confidence has grown, I will consider acquiring the M8 (with a 50 mm Summicron 2.0 and a 28 mm Elmarit 2.8). I guess that (price / quality) these are the best choices.

I’ll keep you informed.

 

Bert

HI Bert

Manual focusing on a D200 is horribly difficult compared to an M8 - of course there are uses for an slr (macro and telephoto and action), but I don't think you should be intimidated at all.

 

I had Nikon gear before I bought the M8 (D2x, D200 and some of the pro-afs lenses). I bought an M8 for the same sort of reasons you have. 9 months later the Nikon gear has all gone - I just didn't use it. I do have a 4/3 setup up which I use for macro and telephoto, and I don't do much action shooting.

 

It's different using an M8 - and it'll take a little time to get used to, but much less intimidating than going from an M8 to a D200!

 

If you can afford it, and you fancy it, do it - you'll find it very liberating, and it'll sharpen up your compositional skills (it's so nice to be able to see what's NOT going to be in your photo as well as what IS.

 

I reckon that the amount of shots on which I blow the focus is around the same number as the D200 used to on autofocus!

[Ariston]

I have a Canon 5d as well as an M8, and when I go back to the 5d, I often find it frustrating and I find myself trying to wrest control back from the camera. As has been stated above, manual focus on a DSLR is really tough, unlike the M8, which, with practice, can become as quick as AF on a DSLR and allows you to choose exactly where you want the focus point. I constantly find myself refocusing on the 5d trying to get the camera to automatically choose the focus point I want. Despite the manual nature of the M8, if you think ahead when you are out shooting, use aperture priority mode and zone focus then it becomes a point and shoot for those occasions wheere you want to work quickly, you can then critical focus and tweak exposure for shots where speed is not so crucial.

[luigi bertolotti]

Bert, the key to your decision is, in my opinion, in your first statement: you are A PHOTO HOBBYIST : let's go a little deep on this :

 

a) You do not take any professional - money risk if you make some mistake

You do not have to base your equipment decisions on the kind of assignments you are taking or hope to take; don't need to decide on a sort of "return on investment" analisys that, even if approximate and "sentiment driven" too, is the foundation of any kind of business one has to live on.

c) But you are not a person that simply wants to take some picture when it worths for some reason, no matters the gear provided that it works.

d) You WANT to do your best to have good pictures, and to have an equipment that satisfies you not only for the results, but also for the pleasure to use it: in any hobby, the medium is important as the goal.

 

You do not say what are your preferred kinds of shots, but I can suppose that, as for myself, you are not so dedicated to a specific subject. Well, thinking of M8, you have to keep well clear on your mind that there are kinds of pictures, nice for a hobbyist, you are almost forbidden to do with a M8 in respect to a DSLR, or, at least, unless you adapt yourself to manage complicated gear, that can appear foolish versus what you can achieve with rather common DSLR gear; I made my first macro session with my M8 2 weeks ago... I took my Visoflex and bellows (? it's 30 years or so it's no more produced), unscrewed the lens unit of my 135, put together some strange adapter ring... then tripod and ok as usual... with a DSLR I simply would have mounted a lens... but I like to do so... and one of these days I'll take on my 560mm... other kind of complications...but like it.

So, as my conclusion, go to M8 if you really like to use this kind of camera: you have to learn many things about RF focusing, no zoom and so... but also this can be a pleasure for a hobbyist; someday, you'll obtain excellent pictures... and different from me... at least you already are in touch with the digital process... I used RF Leicas for 25 years or so... handling and shooting the M8 was vey easy for me... managing the files is my "learning phase" nowadays...

[Minos]

Hello Bert!

 

I found myself in the same situation as yours a while back.

I had a D200 with several great lenses. One even was stabilized. Great stuff!

But I found myself inexorably attracted by the rangefinder system.

So I had the same dilemma as as you have now.

After much hesitation, I took the plunge. I haven't regretted it a single minute.

I originally thought there were some aspects of photography I wouldn't be able to practise due to my choice. Well, I haven't found anything I couldn't do better than before.

I know this might seem illogical, but it's true.

Small explanation:

When you use a D200, you have a great, robust camera with fast and silent autofocus and super zoom possibilities (I had a 18-200 VR) and automatic exposure control.

Say goodbye to that with your M8. But, the amazing thing is, you won't miss it.

The fact you don't have a zoom actually forces you to move about more, which also forces you to view new possibilities. My photography actually got better thanks to this.

When it comes to focusing, I agree it's not easy in the beginning, but it's quite easy and you get a lot faster over time. I even have the impression that the focusing is sometimes more precise. It's only a bit tricky for action photography, but if you prepare it on a higher speed and even use the hyperfocal scale on the lens, you should be able to take anything.

For the exposure, I'm mostly on auto speed. That way I only take care of ISO and aperture. It saves some time.

Oh, and by the way, I only have a Summicron 35. And I manage quite well with only that. In the future, I plan to get a Macro Elmar 90.

Size matters. So now I go almost everywhere with my M8. This is close to impossible with a camera as large and HEAVY as the D200.

 

Conclusion:

- Get an M8. If you're hesitating, it's already too late: you won't rest before you own one.

- Don't worry about the possiblilities: you can do almost anything with it, it only depends on you.

- The lack of buttons, programs, automatic exposure and zoom become (believe it or not) an advantage.

 

Hmmmm.

Sweet dilemma.

[burbank@ntnation.com]

Wow, your post could almost have been written by me (If you search on the forums for my user-id, you will read that my story is almost exactly yours).

 

I too am coming from a Nikon background -- D200, D70, etc. And I also am considering the M8. I also am an amateur, shooting a couple of specific subjects. Some of them I believe are within range of the M8 -- architecture, street shooting, my kids Some I don't think are, although I believe some on this forum have indicated I should keep an open mind on them (and I will) -- primarily those are specific sports images I take on a volunteer basis for an organization I support.

 

Why am I considering an M8? Three reasons, four if I am honest:

 

1. I miss plenty of shots with my AF D200 and D70 -- most of the times, it's because the AF just got it wrong -- focused on the wrong thing, something moved and changed the distance, or sometimes it is just plain wrong. On the slower D70, this happens plenty of times, on the D200, not as much, but it does.

 

2. Weight.... I want to be able to carry this around. Yesterday, I put the M8 in a protective case inside my backpack and carried it around (still haven't shot with it yet btw) to bring it home. I could never have done that with the D200 and probably not with the D70 (less a weight issue and more a size issue with the D70 -- the D200 is a problem in both respects).

 

3. The Leica "glow" -- the quality of the lens, the quality of the M8, etc. I think pictures will simply be better -- especially in some of my architectural elements, I think I will get pictures I like more.

 

4. And finally, the "other reason" -- Leica Ms seem to have been in so many interesting and wonderful situations since the 1930s to modern times. Even yesterday, just handling the M8, I could sort of feel this. I know this sounds like pure nonsense, and to a major extent, it is. However, the Leica reputation didn't come out of thin air, and it seems that the M8 embodies all the good things that made that reputation -- technical leadership, eclectic design true to its form and function, etc.

 

Yesterday, I picked up an M8 and a 28mm lens on a rental basis to use for the next week -- and I will report back in a week or two on my experiences, and post some photos for you to take a look at. Plus if you'd like to ask questions, feel free to post on this board and I will do my best to answer them... I think, in some tiny way, that hopefully my experiences will help other novice users like myself in deciding whether at least to evaluate the M8.

[Stephen.s1]

While waiting for my M8, I bought a M6 to sharpen my rangefinder skills. The transition to the M8 was a piece of cake. I enjoyed it's size and flexibility so much that I sold my D200 and replaced it with a D2Xs. Thus leaving the Leicas for my "walking around" cameras.

 

My pictures, with the M cameras, don't "glow":rolleyes: ... No Leitz glass in this house, unless you count the spotting scope.

 

I'd do it all over again if I had to...

 

So, go for it. It's only money and time.

[sean_reid]

With a little practice Bert, you'll find that focusing the M8 is faster and easier than manually focusing an SLR. So manually focusing your D200 doesn't really approximate working with an RF.

 

As for exposure, you can learn about it the way that many of us did before the advent of AE cameras. The key, of course, is teach yourself about exposure using both the AE setting and the histogram. Let the camera choose a shutter speed, check the histogram, switch to a manual shutter speed, check the histo. again. After awhile you'll need to check the histo less and less and will intuitively start to know how to adjust the exposure when needed. This is something many of us (older than 40 I guess) had to know how to do once upon a time.

 

I'm coming from long experience with manual cameras and I find the M8/R-D1 to both be much faster to work with than any of our DSLRs (given my way of working). To be sure, the skills come with practice.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

how do you get the legendary image quality of leica lenses (sharpness i guess) when you dont focus on the spot. makes me LOL.

 

Most of the best and most famous work done with Leicas has little to do with sharpness.

 

Cheers,

[sean_reid]

While waiting for my M8, I bought a M6 to sharpen my rangefinder skills.

 

That was a good idea.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Jager]

Welcome to the forum, Bert.

 

Your Nikon D200 is a wonderful camera (I have one). It can take wonderful images. And there's no question that a DSLR system is far more versatile than a rangefinder. The thing is this...

 

A rangefinder - and a Leica M in particular - just seems to work better for a lot of us.

 

Modern DSLR's are as much computers as they are cameras. They have a ton of functions, most of which are buried amongst multiple layers of menu selections. That contrasts sharply with the spartan interface on the M8, which has been pared to just the bare essentials. The ideal is to "lose the camera", to become so familiar with its controls that they become automatic, allowing your photographer's eye to work unhindered. That's a lot easier achieved with an M8 than a D200. When I bought my first rangefinder years ago (an M6), I found that my hit rate of good images increased quite a bit. There's just something about the Leica ethos which lends itself to successful photography.

 

And, of course, there's that size and weight thing. You'll hear it mentioned many times, but it's absolutely true. The unobtrusive nature of a Leica M is not nearly as intimidating to most people as is a modern DSLR. A couple days ago I was at Arlington Cemetery for a military funeral. There's no way I would have felt ok carrying a big camera. But the M8 was fine. It's small, discrete appearance, relative quiet, and lack of flash gave me access to something I otherwise would not have been able to capture.

 

By all means treat yourself to this wonderful camera.

 

Jeff

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Photoskeptic]

Bert, I, too, had a D200. I sell my images in a gallery. 50% of my images that sell were taken with the D200. But I ditched it when the M8 came out. Why? I have a grounding in film M's and I was tired of hauling that brick around. I do miss telephoto, but the rangefinder advantages make up for it. It is not for everyone and may not suit you and the style of photography you use today. Like others have said, if you don't mind spending the money, go ahead, but be prepared for a learning curve that will probably take months. The more you use any camera system the better you become. You know others are getting great results so it does take some perserverance.

Good luck