Has anyone proposed having a "Stolen Leica" forum

[Exodies]

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What exactly is good title?

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[jwarren]

What if someone were to maliciously state on here that a camera or lens of SN: 1234567 had been stolen, even if that wasn't true?

 

Forever, that SN: could be tainted and the rightful owner could have all sorts of problems having the thing serviced or at sale.

 

The forum has no way of knowing whether a person who posts that SN: 1234567 has been stolen has told the truth.

 

 

Forgive my naiveté or ignorance, but why would someone do such a thing? What's the motivation for someone to claim that a camera that's not stolen was stolen? I'm not suggesting that it wouldn't happen, but I can't figure out how someone would profit from doing so.

[Gibbo]

Mischief doesn't always have to offer a profit. Just causing someone else some grief is often payment enough. Sadly!

[pebbles]

What exactly is good title?

Having spent too much time seeking the camera - it was particularly important to me - i have learnt a lot. Good title means that the item is yours and you can sell or dispose of it without any claims against you.

[earleygallery]

I did propose a register of stolen cameras some time ago and met the same objections.

 

I must admit I can't imagine anyone seeking out the serial numbers of some gear and posting them as stolen but then yes, there are some funny people about so I can see that it could happen!

 

That said, we allow people to post threads here stating their gear has been stolen and posting serial numbers - who knows if they are legitimate or not? Should we ban such posts in future if that's a genuine concern?

 

If the items are insured then once the claim is paid they become the property of the insurance company, so it's up to them what they do from that point on.

[Gibbo]

There's a difference between offering people advice, letting them post a thread about their sorry experience to becoming the official place to report theft.

[Peter H]

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There's a difference between offering people advice, letting them post a thread about their sorry experience to becoming the official place to report theft.

I didn’t think it was intended to be official in any way.

 

If my camera was stolen I’d tell my photographer friends the serial number. I’d like to think we could do the same here, with no official status, just a friendly and possibly helpful thing to do.

[andybarton]

No one is stopping you doing that. People do so regularly.

 

It's just that a "Stolen Leicas" thread would require management, have data privacy implications and the issues that I raised earlier.

 

What happens if the stolen Leica turns up 2 years later and is returned to the owner? Would they come back and say so on that thread? Would they expect someone (a Mod or Andreas) to go back and find their original post (and the subsequent discussion) and delete it? Or would they just forget about it?

[Gibbo]

Fair enough, Peter. I'm still not sure how you weed out the mischief makers. We've seen how a thread on here can have an adverse effect on someone's reputation because the forum carries a certain gravitas that can lead to the appearance of being official. I can't prove on here my ownership of my Leica equipment.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Gibbo

[Ronazle]

Andreas has better things to do than chase around the world phoning police stations to see whether a camera has been reported stolen, I would suggest.

 

Leica are the proper people to hold such a registry. 

 

Owners should be encouraged to register their details when they buy, or sell a camera. I know that some people don't want to do this, but if everyone did, if an article gets stolen, it would be easy for Leica to flag the item themselves against the database of the owners.

 

As time goes by it is more unlikely that second, third or fifteenth owners will do this of course, and as soon as one owner doesn't register a sale/purchase, the whole system breaks down.

 

Probably best to make sure that you are properly insured.

 

For the life of me I cannot understand the objections to merely listing "my Leica of such and such s/n was stolen" which could be very helpful to the legal owners and reassuring to Forum Members who are buying a Leica. I must say that the advice "to make sure that you are properly insured" is very helpful and intuitively germane to the discussion. Even better advice might be to not have your gear stolen. Regards, Ron

[Peter H]

Fair enough, Peter. I'm still not sure how you weed out the mischief makers. We've seen how a thread on here can have an adverse effect on someone's reputation because the forum carries a certain gravitas that can lead to the appearance of being official. I can't prove on here my ownership of my Leica equipment.

 

 

I'd be inclined to take your word over that of someone I've never heard of before, who is doing nothing other than questioning your honesty. 

[marcg]

What exactly is good title?

 

It means that you are the lawful owner.

 

In Anglo-Saxon jurisdictions, an item which is stolen and then resold and resold and resold always remains the property of the original owner.

 

I really don't see how Christie's could legally justify at least not informing the police that they had sold a stolen item and who the purchaser was.

 

If you want the camera back then I think that you should approach Christie's and the police about this. I'm quite sure they would be reluctant but at the end of the day they may effectively be breaking the law by assisting in the handling/retention blah blah of stolen goods - which happens to be treated more seriously than the initial theft.

 

There is a legal theory that the money that you make from selling on stolen goods does itself become stolen – and any goods you buy with that stolen money also become stolen. We're becoming quite esoteric now.

 

In most European jurisdictions, a purchaser in good faith obtains title to the item becomes the lawful owner. Markets in France and Italy – and I believe, Switzerland are good places to sell on stolen art for that reason. A purchaser in good faith can be fairly confident of becoming the owner of an item even though it might be stolen – although there is a fairly high bar as to "good faith".

 

Once you become a good faith purchaser and the stolen item belongs to you you can then move into Anglo-Saxon jurisdictions and sell the item there and pass on good title because you have under a different jurisdiction become the legal owner.

 

In the UK we used to have "market overt" which was a quaint idea wherein items bought at particular locations during particular daylight hours became the owner of a good faith purchaser for value even if the item was stolen. This is no longer the case.

 

The French operate a good-faith purchaser for value system in respect of private sales so that if your camera or artwork is stolen and it is sold in France then you can probably kiss it goodbye.

 

As a final little amuse-bouche, the French reserve the Anglo-Saxon system for government/publicly owned property and so that means that if you happen to buy an artwork which was stolen from the Louvre, even though you buy it in good faith, it remains stolen and it can be taken away from you so that you lose the artwork and you lose your money.  

 

I think that's what Egalité means in French jurisprudence!  No flies on the Fwench!!  

 

 

The Anglo-Saxon system is called "nemo dat quod non habet"   - no man can give what he doesn't have.

The Latin/Napoleonic system is called "possession vaut titre" - possession means ownership

 

 

 

Some of this may have changed since I last looked at it carefully several years ago.

Edited April 6, 2018 by marcg

[andybarton]

Hands up all those who would find such a thread here and check a serial number against a stolen register if buying a camera. Don't all rush at once.

 

Presumably, someone would say "Can we have a separate register for Ms, Ss, CLs, M-lenses, R-lenses....?"

 

Who is going to manage and maintain such a register? Who is going to pay for it?

 

Given the internet is now over 20 years old, has billions of users and millions of apps and websites, do you not think that if this was simple thing, someone would have done it already?

[marcg]

http://www.artloss.com/en

[jwarren]

Hands up all those who would find such a thread here and check a serial number against a stolen register if buying a camera. Don't all rush at once.

 

Presumably, someone would say "Can we have a separate register for Ms, Ss, CLs, M-lenses, R-lenses....?"

 

Who is going to manage and maintain such a register? Who is going to pay for it?

 

Given the internet is now over 20 years old, has billions of users and millions of apps and websites, do you not think that if this was simple thing, someone would have done it already?

Just say "No".

[Peter H]

Hands up all those who would find such a thread here and check a serial number against a stolen register if buying a camera. Don't all rush at once.

 

Presumably, someone would say "Can we have a separate register for Ms, Ss, CLs, M-lenses, R-lenses....?"

 

Who is going to manage and maintain such a register?

 

Given the internet is now over 20 years old, has billions of users and millions fo apps and websites, do you not think that if this was simple thing, someone would have done it already?

 

 

 A quick Google search shows up quite a few examples.

 

Maybe you're thinking of something more formal than I am. I imagined it would simply be a list, not a register, just another thread, that people can add to when they like. I'd hope it would be a very short list, obviously. Type of camera or lens, serial number, when stolen. That's it. No official status, no action required.   People have posted details of their stolen gear on here before. Has it ever caused problems?

 

Anyway, if you don't want it, we won't do it, but it seems a shame.

[Exodies]

We would need some kind of block chain ledger to record ownership and transfer of ownership. But we’ve already discussed this and the majority opinion seems to be that it’s bollocks.

[andybarton]

It's not up to me.

 

I was merely pointing out some of the problems associated with such a proposal.

 

I don't think that people would be satisfied with just a "bucket" thread, into which odd snippets of information are thrown. It would only be useful if it were a proper database that could be searched easily (and I don't mean via the forum's crude search box).

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[Exodies]

Aren’t phones tied to a particular user until he relinquishes ownership? A stolen camera should be unusable without the password. Lenses too (rfid implant).

[Peter H]

It's not up to me.

 

I was merely pointing out some of the problems associated with such a proposal.

 

I don't think that people would be satisfied with just a "bucket" thread, into which odd snippets of information are thrown. It would only be useful if it were a proper database that could be searched easily (and I don't mean via the forum's crude search box).

 

 

I have no idea what they'd be satisfied with Andy. They're rarely satisfied with much as it is! 

 

I thought Pebbles had a good idea, that's all.  I don't feel that strongly about it really.

 

I'll shut up now!