Shutter actuations on the CL

[Jdphoto]

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I've reset the camera to factory settings, but not sure how to determine shutter actuations. I used Raw Digger, but it gives only the file name with a number, which is probably accurate for that specific numbering sequence, but not an overall shutter count. Any suggestions? Thanks.

[Jdphoto]

Is there any way to determine an accurate shutter count on the Leica CL?

[LocalHero1953]

The short answer is (like most (all?) modern Leicas since the introduction of the M240): no, not to my knowledge.

 

The longer answer would start with saying that, for any camera with LV, that is the wrong question! The shutter is open all the time with LV, and closed when switched off, and this may involve no actual shots. So the number of shutter actuations is only a very rough guide to how much use the shutter and other parts of the camera have had.

 

Back in the dark ages of film cameras, of course, we had no idea of shutter actuations either.

[Jdphoto]

 

 

The short answer is (like most (all?) modern Leicas since the introduction of the M240): no, not to my knowledge.

 

The longer answer would start with saying that, for any camera with LV, that is the wrong question! The shutter is open all the time with LV, and closed when switched off, and this may involve no actual shots. So the number of shutter actuations is only a very rough guide to how much use the shutter and other parts of the camera have had.

 

Back in the dark ages of film cameras, of course, we had no idea of shutter actuations either.

Great point! However, for a potential Leica buyer, it weighs heavily on price negotiations. I guess the only way to get an accurate gauge, is to count the "L" images in my folders as I always save them to an external HD. Thanks for the input.

[thighslapper]

After the M9 Leica invoked a 'Raw Data Unique ID' or 'Image unique ID' in the Exif.

 

This is generated by a complex algorithm that only Leica is privy to and several of us who looked could not work out how the number was generated. 

 

I suspect in the Service Menu there is a log or a way of converting this into the number of images taken. Leica Mayfair scrutinised this on my M240's when I traded them in.

 

I think this is partly to do with problems generated with ex-demo and refurbished cameras ...... my 'as new, ex demo, lightly used, factory refurbished and guaranteed' M9 turned out to have 15,000 actuations ...... and when I complained that this constituted a second hand camera they replaced it with a brand new one, at the cost of £1500 to them.

 

I'm sure 90% of this was just the usual click, click, click with no card in the camera that we all engage in when playing with cameras in shops, and of little consequence to the longevity of the camera. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by thighslapper

[Jdphoto]

You can convert a hexadecimal number found in the unique ID number when using a mac's "preview" program. It's under tools/inspector/exif. However, the CL doesn't have a unique number.

[thighslapper]

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You can convert a hexadecimal number found in the unique ID number when using a mac's "preview" program. It's under tools/inspector/exif. However, the CL doesn't have a unique number.

 ...... it does ..... it's called Raw Data Unique ID .........

 

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Edited April 12, 2018 by thighslapper

[Jdphoto]

 

 

 ...... it does ..... it's called Raw Data Unique ID .........

 

Screen Shot 2018-04-11 at 17.32.08.png

What version of OS? Mine is 10.11.6 and i definitely  don't have that much info on my EXIF, but thanks for the info.

[Photon42]

 ...... it does ..... it's called Raw Data Unique ID .........

 

Screen Shot 2018-04-11 at 17.32.08.png

 

 

yes - but how do you decode it for shutter counts ... I can see some digits moving between frames, but it does not seem to resonate with a shutter count for me. But may just be the time of the day.

[scott kirkpatrick]

What version of OS? Mine is 10.11.6 and i definitely  don't have that much info on my EXIF, but thanks for the info.

I'm running 10.13.4 and don't see that much EXIF either.  Is there a later version of Preview that I could use?

[thighslapper]

What version of OS? Mine is 10.11.6 and i definitely  don't have that much info on my EXIF, but thanks for the info.

 

This is from ExifXExtreme: https://en.freedownloadmanager.org/Mac-OS/ExifExtreme.html

 

I note that on my iPad Pro that it displays only the lower res embedded file and not the DNG .... so maybe there is an issue with OS and CL files. 

 

The DNG's process fine when imported into LR on the iPad

Edited April 12, 2018 by thighslapper

[Jdphoto]

 

 

This is from ExifXExtreme: https://en.freedownloadmanager.org/Mac-OS/ExifExtreme.html

 

I note that on my iPad Pro that it displays only the lower res embedded file and not the DNG .... so maybe there is an issue with OS and CL files. 

 

The DNG's process fine when imported into LR on the iPad

I tried to download, but it says it is now a commercial license. Leica emailed me about the shutter actuations and this was there reply..."Unfortunately none of the Leica camera models provide the means to access that information.  Technicians can see the data when a camera is connected to their computers and in service mode".

[thighslapper]

yup ...... and it looks like it's one of a large number of old apps that have vanished from the App Store due to OS changes.

 

My copy works fine ...... but it dates from 2013 ............. and I can't locate the original installation file...... 

[scott kirkpatrick]

The fine print on his site says that this worked for 10.6 to 10.8.  That was several mountain ranges ago.

[thighslapper]

Looking on his blog Marc has retired and ceased support for most of his apps as of Dec 17. 

 

A pity, because the 1.02 version of ExifExtreme still works fine on the latest Mac OS. 

 

However ... it is based on Exiftool .....   so although I have not used this it presumably will produce the same comprehensive listing from the DNG (and many others)

 

https://sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/

Edited April 12, 2018 by thighslapper

[colonel]

If this works like any of Leica's new cameras the shutter count will be meaningless

As it is a counter including LV activations and video activations/key frames

[lct]

Indicates (or should indicate) the number of shutter actuations which shows how much the shutter has been used. My modern shutters have little use for instance because i'm in silent mode most of the time. How can i prove it to a potential buyer? Pity that Leica does not allow that contrary to other camera makers.

[cbretteville]

The uniqueid is supposed to represent a unique identifier for a single image. In the M8 the developers just picket an available value that changed for each image;  It became known as the shutter count as we showed it increased by one for each frame shot. However, it was not necessarily accurate as the number was not reset to zero after a shutter replacement. 

I seem to recall the M9 used the same method for generating the ID.

 

With the M240 the count is less accurate as video was introduced and the shuttercount is no longer used in the exif value. We see the same in the CL. I haven't done any research into metadata since I wrote the paper on the M8, but from a developer's perspective using a calculated checksum (something like an MD5 or a SHA256) of the image or parts of it makes more sense as it truly represents a unique ID. Looking at the example above it is likely comprised of several parts that are concatenated into a string that is stored. I took delivery of a CL yesterday, so I plan to have a look into the metadata in its and the SL's files over time.

Carl

Edited May 15, 2018 by cbretteville

[colonel]

Great point! However, for a potential Leica buyer, it weighs heavily on price negotiations. I guess the only way to get an accurate gauge, is to count the "L" images in my folders as I always save them to an external HD. Thanks for the input.

 

It shouldn't

Its all about condition, whether the box is available, and if it is within guarantee

 

Generally very high shutter activation cameras show considerable wear

 

Due to the capacity of the shutter anything not "very high" (i.e. in the 10000s) is not significant

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[scott kirkpatrick]

 

With the M240 the count is less accurate as video was introduced and the shuttercount is no longer used in the exif value. We see the same in the CL. I haven't done any research into metadata since I wrote the paper on the M8, but from a developer's perspective using a calculated checksum (something like an MD5 or a SHA256) of the image or parts of it makes more sense as it truly represents a unique ID. Looking at the example above it is likely comprised of several parts that are concatenated into a string that is stored. I took delivery of a CL yesterday, so I plan to have a look into the metadata in its and the SL's files over time.

Carl

 

Hi, Carl. Figuring out what worked in the M8 was fun.  Especially since early users could see things that Leica and the first reviewers hadn't caught yet.  I wouldn't expect the CL and SL to have many unpleasant surprises.  As with the M8, Leica didn't prioritize getting all the metadata right in the SL as high as operational bugs, so it took a few firmware releases before some serious bugs in legacy R lens profiles were fixed.  I'm using Adobe's dng_validate to extract metadata from current release 4.0 DNG files.  There are lots of MakerNotes, which this tool doesn't try very hard to explore.  Also, complex digital-only lenses make use of the WarpRectangular opcodes, and these vary in strange ways.

 

Even if the unique image identifier consists of a hash code transforming a counter that increases steadily, aren't the hash functions supposed to be cryptographically secure, making it hard to get back to the counter value? 

Edited May 26, 2018 by scott kirkpatrick