pgk Posted December 30, 2022 Share #61 Posted December 30, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 9 hours ago, Musky said: Because it’s Relative you have to start them all at 0dB. then increase the gain But you still have to be able to compare base sensitivity. The concept of fim speed is a legacy bequeathed to us from film. But iin the early days of film there was no standardisation and it took a long time before a comparable sytem was formulated. Today its the base sensitivity which needs comparing but even this isn't so simple because the information from the sensor is processed even before it is output so there needs to be an aimpoint or we will get into a chaos of differing claims with no yardstick to measure anything by. Yes amplifying or increasing gain is what happens after the sensor information is output, but without a fully comparable way of determining comparative amounts outputs would be difficult to compare too. If there had been a clean break between film and digital we might have been able to redefine a lot of things but the transition took time and we carried over many concepts, for better or worse. Look on the bright side, my oldest lenses have apertures which clearly represent the available imperial drill szes (in 1/8" or 1/16" increments) available to the maker! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 30, 2022 Posted December 30, 2022 Hi pgk, Take a look here 1 EV darker photographs. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jjesp Posted January 4, 2023 Share #62 Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) On 12/29/2022 at 11:01 AM, jip said: This has nothing to do with the metering of the camera, Leica lies a little bit when it comes to ISO sensitivity on the M10. The M10 is always 1 stop slower than the set ISO value, of course the integrated light meter accounts for this, but when metering with sunny 16, or a external light meter the M10 is 1 stop less sensitive than it should be. Most digital cameras have about 1/3 stop less sensitivity than advertised this helps protect highlights. Leica M10 has a whole full stop less sensitivity than advertised. ISO 400 frankly is 200. etc. As is also very easily visible on this sensitivity graph: https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Leica/M10---Measurements The M10 ISO sensitivities: 100 = 89 200 = 105 400 = 201 800 = 402 1600 = 787 3200 = 1566 6400 = 3274 When correct exposure can be achieved at: ISO 400 - F/8 - 1/125 on most cameras and film on this planet earth you have to add one stop of light, be it shutter speed, aperture, or iso on the M10 to get the same result. I've learned to use 1 ISO stop higher than written on the ISO dial with M10, then I can use sunny 16, or external meters just fine etc. Thank you, this is my experience too, in real life. And as said, it is not a problem when you know it. To me it just too easy that a manufacturer releases a new camera and is saying: "Look, we have increased the noise level with one stop on the new sensor". But instead they just repainted values on the ISO dial 😂 But it is all good. The M10 is still a fantastic camera. And as some say, they all lie a little. Here they just lied a tiny bit more... Edited January 4, 2023 by jjesp grammar Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jip Posted January 4, 2023 Share #63 Posted January 4, 2023 It is worth noting however the M10 deviates from the industry norm quite a bit. (A full stop) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 4, 2023 Share #64 Posted January 4, 2023 actually on an unrelated topic... kinda... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! anyone wanna hazard a guess as to WTAF happened here, because I can't figure it out.... In the space of one frame and maybe 1 second and despite me dropping the exp. 1/2 a stop the 2nd frame is super dark. Do note the same ISO and F stop used and for the purposes of this screen shot, I hit 'reset' on both images in LR so everything is adobe standard Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! anyone wanna hazard a guess as to WTAF happened here, because I can't figure it out.... In the space of one frame and maybe 1 second and despite me dropping the exp. 1/2 a stop the 2nd frame is super dark. Do note the same ISO and F stop used and for the purposes of this screen shot, I hit 'reset' on both images in LR so everything is adobe standard ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/282938-1-ev-darker-photographs/?do=findComment&comment=4628670'>More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 4, 2023 Share #65 Posted January 4, 2023 35 minutes ago, Al Brown said: A well known and documented digital M (Typ240, M10, M11) phenomenon. The camera randomly (between every 100 and 500 exposures) drastically underexposes or overexposes a single shot. Happened to me on M240 (overexposure), M10-P (underexposure) and M10-R (both). Some similar stuff here. thank you very much, despite having owned a 240/10/10R I think that this might be the first ever time this has happened.. although maybe once on the 240 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 4, 2023 Share #66 Posted January 4, 2023 6 minutes ago, Al Brown said: With 40K auctuations a year, I probably noticed it sooner. Very few people also shoot Leica continuously like I do (in both S and C modes). I'm probably making the 40k per year shots!! But seldom in S or C That thread you helpfully linked suggested that perhaps the physical shutter is still busy when we shoot shots very close together and as the exif of my shots lists 1 sec of time between each frame then I suspect it was this.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harpomatic Posted January 14, 2023 Share #67 Posted January 14, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) On 1/4/2023 at 7:44 PM, Adam Bonn said: I'm probably making the 40k per year shots!! But seldom in S or C That thread you helpfully linked suggested that perhaps the physical shutter is still busy when we shoot shots very close together and as the exif of my shots lists 1 sec of time between each frame then I suspect it was this.. My M10r has given me 4 black frames over 6-7000 shots, continuous low shooting mode. The M11 gives me a white frame almost every shoot, S mode. Even shooting a single image once. You would think they had figured it out by now! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 14, 2023 Share #68 Posted January 14, 2023 8 hours ago, Harpomatic said: You would think they had figured it out by now! One lives in hope… 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Jefferson Posted February 7, 2023 Share #69 Posted February 7, 2023 I was thinking about this very (old) topic recently and suddenly it hit me. Leica M shooter had a long history and people are telling me it's better over expose than under for (negative) films, as the highlight head room is ample. So in order to keep that calculation valid, the ISO rating was deliberately set lower so that it matches the film output. I believe there are people still using external light meter and if they choose to over expose it according to the ISO setting of the external light meter, one can expect the similar result compared to film. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitnaros Posted February 7, 2023 Share #70 Posted February 7, 2023 I have had an M9, still have an M9-mono, have an M5, M7, a Fuji GFX 100 S, and a Mamiya-7 and Pentax 67II. I use all of them pretty regularly. I have an M10-P (as forced upgrade from my M9 that suffered from sensor corrosion), which I like a lot - with the exception of one aspect. I am working with a variety of different exposure metering systems on the cameras mentioned above and their settings options. no problems across the digital and film cameras with the exception of 1 camera: the M10-P underexposes in a ridiculous manner the moment light isn’t completely flat. It’s the worst metering system of any Leica and camera I ever had. Yeah, one can say “get used to it”, but I think it’s just flawed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 7, 2023 Share #71 Posted February 7, 2023 A lot of the m10 underexposure is, IMHO, the very aggressive native tone curve that renders a significant portion of the image as darker than expected. Iirc @adan has a graph that demonstrates this superbly. My M10 ended up being replaced by an M10R in a spur of the moment type thing, and the more open tonality of the R files (and the extra exposure latitude) are two of the things I really enjoy about the new camera Again IMHO, but the thing with the M10 is that it’s a camera that works best brightening in post and guarding highlights when shooting. It’s not so much about saving highlights etc just being able as much as possible to manage the highlight roll off in post I write my own profiles and with the M10 I could never quite get a new tone reproduction operator (that’s a tone curve in normal speak) that played nicely enough with enough of the files. There’s a huge wedge of contrast baked into the M10 DNG and (IMHO) it’s best edited, or not, on a photo by photo basis (by contrast -sic- the 10R responds well to pretty much any TC you care to write) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted February 7, 2023 Share #72 Posted February 7, 2023 IMO the M10 etc are best used in manual metering mode unless the light is uniform and flat. It may not be the answer 'A' enthusiasts want to hear, but it's the nature of the beast, and always has been with M's due to the center weighted metering off the shutter curtain (can't speak for the 11). Think of it as a great opportunity to learn about light and how to meter for it. You images will be better for it in the long run. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 7, 2023 Share #73 Posted February 7, 2023 2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said: IMO the M10 etc are best used in manual metering mode unless the light is uniform and flat. It may not be the answer 'A' enthusiasts want to hear, but it's the nature of the beast, and always has been with M's due to the center weighted metering off the shutter curtain (can't speak for the 11). Think of it as a great opportunity to learn about light and how to meter for it. You images will be better for it in the long run. What you're saying is inherently sound advice, I just think in the case of the M10 that all the metering possibilities lead to Rome.... The M10d/p (not r) natively crush the shadows via use of an inbuilt tone curve, whilst also being fickle about its highlight roll off. This means one (generally speaking, always exceptions) runs either a darker exposure and then brighten in post, or lives more dangerously in camera but at the risk of having gnarly highlights This trade off doesn't disappear if one shoots manually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted February 7, 2023 Share #74 Posted February 7, 2023 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said: What you're saying is inherently sound advice, I just think in the case of the M10 that all the metering possibilities lead to Rome.... The M10d/p (not r) natively crush the shadows via use of an inbuilt tone curve, whilst also being fickle about its highlight roll off. This means one (generally speaking, always exceptions) runs either a darker exposure and then brighten in post, or lives more dangerously in camera but at the risk of having gnarly highlights This trade off doesn't disappear if one shoots manually. I come from the days of shooting slide film, or Tri-X with a flash, so that's naturally ingrained in me. It's better with the M10-R, but with the M8/9/10 I always shot as if I had Fujichrome loaded. Edited February 7, 2023 by charlesphoto99 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 7, 2023 Share #75 Posted February 7, 2023 15 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said: I come from the days of shooting slide film, or Tri-X with a flash, so that's naturally ingrained in me. It's better with the M10-R, but with the M8/9/10 I always shot as if I had Fujichrome loaded. The M9 has a tag (that Leica have) embedded into the RAW that forces the RAW convertor (as long as its adobe) to run half a stop darker than the camera's exposure!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 7, 2023 Share #76 Posted February 7, 2023 On 12/29/2022 at 6:03 AM, Adam Bonn said: Most cameras meter for the jpeg, the iirc >M9 M range doesn’t have a RGB histogram (and if they did it would be the jpeg), The M(9) Monochrom does have a RAW based histogram, which kicks in shortly after the initial JPEG based version. I think this is the only digital M with this feature. Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 7, 2023 Share #77 Posted February 7, 2023 42 minutes ago, Jeff S said: The M(9) Monochrom does have a RAW based histogram, which kicks in shortly after the initial JPEG based version. I think this is the only digital M with this feature. I've heard it said that the regular M9 does too, certainly if you open an image on the M9 you get a histogram which then some moments later changes shape, implying that either the first one is the jpeg and the second the RAW or that the M9 really is slow to update the screen content (either is plausible, but I chose to believe the former!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 7, 2023 Share #78 Posted February 7, 2023 11 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said: I've heard it said that the regular M9 does too, certainly if you open an image on the M9 you get a histogram which then some moments later changes shape, implying that either the first one is the jpeg and the second the RAW or that the M9 really is slow to update the screen content (either is plausible, but I chose to believe the former!) The MM histogram is unique, as described in this article (see separate section)… https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2012/05/leica-m-monochrom-review-529/ Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 7, 2023 Share #79 Posted February 7, 2023 14 minutes ago, Jeff S said: The MM histogram is unique, as described in this article (see separate section)… https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2012/05/leica-m-monochrom-review-529/ Jeff It’s entirely possible, but the M9 has the over/under exposure warnings and the histogram does change shape a few moments after loading, m9 only embeds a preview jpeg, the camera is set to raw only Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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