Summilux 50mm ASPH - material..?

[Leicaec421]

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Hi folks,

 

 

I am still a bit puzzled about the materials and weight differences of silver (11892) & black (11891) examples of 50 lux ASPH.

 

 

My initial understanding was:

 

-Black (11891) Lux 50 is rendered primarily in Aluminum and anoised in black

-Silver (11892) Lux 50 is rendered primarily in brass and finished in silver chrome

 

=> due to the differences in the primary material (i.e. alumnium vs brass), the silver examples are heavier by approx. 30% (or 150g).

 

 

 

In other posts, a few members were suggesting that the recent examples of black and silver weigh the same... -> is this really the case?

 

 

A staff at the Leica store (not a dealer but an actual Leica store) said that silver and black examples weigh different but this is not because of the differences in primary material. She said that the brass content is identical in both silver and black, and the weight difference comes from the fact that the silver examples are dipped in chrome, which is heavier than the anosied finish of black.

 

 

What's the truth in this? 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Leicaec421

[onasj]

Your understanding of why some silver lenses are heavier than their black lens equivalent is correct.  She is incorrect, about many different facts!

Edited March 20, 2018 by onasj

[jdlaing]

Both black and silver lenses can be either brass or aluminum.

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/M_Lenses_x_Focal_Length

[Leicaec421]

Your understanding of why some silver lenses are heavier than their black lens equivalent is correct.  She is incorrect, about many different facts!

 

OK. But what's the truth in some members saying that the recent examples of Silver Lux 50mm ASPH (11892) weigh the same as the black ones (11891) (implying that the silver examples are also rendered in aluminum, NOT brass) 

 

 

 

Both black and silver lenses can be either brass or aluminum.

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/M_Lenses_x_Focal_Length

 

But is this the case for standard 50 lux asph (11891 & 11892)?

[horosu]

It is true :-))

[Leicaec421]

It is true :-))

 

Sorry but what is exactly true?

 

Would be great if you could elaborate!

[onasj]

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It used to be that the black lenses were black anodized aluminum (light), while the silver lenses were chrome-plated brass (heavy).  My understanding is that Leica more recently developed silver anodized aluminum (light), and the more recent silver lenses tend to be based on this development.

 

Note that the anodization or plating of metals typically deposits a very, very thin coating of material on top of the base metal, so the coating in general does not substantially contribute to the overall weight of an object as heavy as a camera lens.

[Leicaec421]

It used to be that the black lenses were black anodized aluminum (light), while the silver lenses were chrome-plated brass (heavy).  My understanding is that Leica more recently developed silver anodized aluminum (light), and the more recent silver lenses tend to be based on this development.

 

Note that the anodization or plating of metals typically deposits a very, very thin coating of material on top of the base metal, so the coating in general does not substantially contribute to the overall weight of an object as heavy as a camera lens.

 

 

Thanks for your input!

 

So what about the primary material of the recent silver lenses? Is it still brass or have they changed it to aluminum?

[NigelG]

AFAIK the silver chrome 50 Lux ASPH is one of the few lenses still made in brass.

Recently updated lenses like the 35 summicron are now silver anodised aluminium whereas before they were chrome-plated brass and thus the weights for the current models are identical (like the summarit lenses also). This is also the case with the 50 Apo.

The difference in weight of plating as opposed to anodising is essentially irrelevant - it is the barrel material that makes the difference.

Bear in mind that the internals of the lenses are the same it is only the outer barrel that is different.

If you look at the official leica lens listings you will see that only the 50 Lux ASPH and 28 Summaron are described as "Silver Chrome Finish"i.e. chrome plating on brass -  the other silver lenses are described as "Silver Anodised Finish" i.e. anodising on aluminium.

[jdlaing]

OK. But what's the truth in some members saying that the recent examples of Silver Lux 50mm ASPH (11892) weigh the same as the black ones (11891) (implying that the silver examples are also rendered in aluminum, NOT brass) 

 

 

 

 

 

But is this the case for standard 50 lux asph (11891 & 11892)?

According to Wiki, the link I posted, the black is aluminum and the silver is brass.

[pedaes]

"A staff at the Leica store (not a dealer but an actual Leica store) said that silver and black examples weigh different but this is not because of the differences in primary material. She said that the brass content is identical in both silver and black, and the weight difference comes from the fact that the silver examples are dipped in chrome, which is heavier than the anosied finish of black."

 

Disappointing that people selling Leica products make-up/guess such nonsense. The current Black Summilux 50mm is annodised high grade aluminium; the Silver (Chrome) is chromed brass. 

[microview]

See also 

50mm Lux ASPH - Silver or Black?

[chris_livsey]

If the Leica store said the lens was only "dipped in chrome" , itself a travesty of the process involved, that dip adds a lot of chrome:  Silver version  470g , Black version 335g The difference is the brass throughout, the focussing helical is still brass in the aluminium alloy version just not brass throughout. 

 

The accepted value of density is 8.470 g/cm3 for brass 2.70 g/cm3 for aluminium ( the alloy will not be this obviously depending on the exact alloy they use but the difference is obvious)

Edited March 20, 2018 by chris_livsey

[M11 for me]

One point was not mentionned yet:

 

The brass 50mm Lux silver has a different silver colour than the silver colour of the silver 35mm Lux. The 50mm Lux is of a beautifull relatively darker silver than the 35mm and exactly the same colour as the body of the M10.

[adan]

Let's be clear about one thing - ALL Leica lenses contain some aluminum and some brass. Because there are several layers of metal inside.

 

Go to Leica's web site and download the technical data brochure for the 50 f/1.4 ASPH to see just how many layers - in the cutaway view, at least 5 counting the floating-element helix.

 

https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/M-Lenses/Summilux-M-50mm-f-1.4-ASPH/Downloads

 

The outer (visible) barrel (under the old regime - heavy silver, lighter black) will be plated brass in the first instance and anodized aluminum in the second instance. But that is only about 60% of the metal involved. The parts hidden inside are brass or aluminum (and the same in all versions of the lens) based on engineering needs (strength, thinness, ductility, need for blackening to avoid flare rather than external cosmetics, etc.).

Edited March 21, 2018 by adan

[delta100]

Speaking of 'thinness' I have noticed on my copy of this lens (the new one ) that the lens hood is very thin. It is so thin that one of the three hood locking points is almost breaking through the top surface of the lens hood.

[steve.chang]

On 3/20/2018 at 11:17 AM, Leicaec421 said:

 

 

Thanks for your input!

 

So what about the primary material of the recent silver lenses? Is it still brass or have they changed it to aluminum?

If I recall correctly, the first silver anodized aluminum body was developed for the Summicron 28 ASPH V1 (Leica# 11661). It has a brighter and whiter finish from my personal experience.

[Robert Blanko]

Dipped in chrome sounds indeed weird to explain a significant difference in weight. But at least she did not allege that the black version is filled with helium while the silver version is filled with nitrogen. I heard said rumor from a friend of a friend, I believe ...

[MrFriendly]

I much rather see Titanium used as the material.  Are the special edition Titanium lenses actual Titanium, or is it just the paint to make it look like Titanium?

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[adan]

On 9/24/2021 at 9:24 PM, MrFriendly said:

I much rather see Titanium used as the material.  Are the special edition Titanium lenses actual Titanium, or is it just the paint to make it look like Titanium?

The vast majority of "titanium" lenses (can cameras) are given a titanium finish or coating, probably by vapor deposition onto brass (the same process used to put anti-reflective coatings onto lens glass - also sometimes called "sputter coating"). So not the same thing as paint, nor is it wet-bath electroplated like chrome.

Titanium is actually a poor material for making high-precision, machined, internal moving parts like lens barrels and rings. Its hardness and low heat conduction makes it very difficult to "cut" and "scrape" into the required complex shapes, and won't allow the parts that slide past one another to "break in" with use.

See the quote from Leica in the gray-box sidebar here:

https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/Leica/Leica-M6/M6TTL-Titanium/index.htm

Quote

Leica has added this info for the SUMMICRON-M 1:2/35 mm ASPH model,".... the lens was produced in a multi-stage production process, the brass components are first of all nickel-plated and then “bombarded” with Titanium ions using “sputtering”, a high-tech high vacuum process. The result is extremely hard, even and dull-bright champagne colored titanium surfaces, which give these model variants their unmistakable high-quality and durable exterior...".

One thus gets titanium characteristics ("pretty color" and hardness/damage-resistance) on the outside, where it does the most good.