M11 Where To From Here? [merged thread]

[jdlaing]

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Steve Jobs said, "A great programmer is worth more than 1,000 good programmers." Replace 'programmer' with 'engineer'. Depending upon Leica's structure it could be true for them.

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[Martin B]

It should also remind you that it took Canon three years to respond.  Canon, per wikipedia, had nearly 200,000 employees in 2016. Leica, 1600.  Do the math. 

Fully agree with your first point - Canon fell behind and did not recover from this hit since. That Leica is a smaller company does not excuse them from implementing old sensor tech. 

[jaapv]

Which newer sensor tech exists for short-register full frame sensors then? I don't know of any camera offering it... Actually, there are simply no other sensors than Leica's bespoke ones... I'm getting rather tired of this drum-beating. 

[Martin B]

The only difference is that both Canon and Nikon are DSLRs, exactly the same concept... Which DRF are you comparing Leica to?

Nobody is denying that it is quite possible that both SL2 and M11 will be 36 MP.  So what? I can already see the forum posts showing that the difference in real life is marginal, and the pixel-peeping ones claiming a vast improvement.

 

You know exactly that I referred to sensor implementation which affects all kind of FF based camera systems. Why again the 36 MP as limit?! This IS already outdated - why not 42 MP (ok, the difference to 36 MP is small here, but it is a backlit sensor) or more? Why always pushing high MP intent towards the more bulky SL? 

Again: did you ever work with a modern high MP FF sensor? I don't think so. Why do you claim that only pixel peeping shows a vast improvement? This is not the case, sorry man. 

[pico]

The M11 should/will be the same basic camera with some minor cosmetic/branding differences and $1000usd more in retail cost.  It will sell well. 

 

Ain't gonna happen like that. Has Leica done such major model upgrade by just name before?

Edited March 13, 2018 by pico

[Martin B]

Which newer sensor tech exists for short-register full frame sensors then? I don't know of any camera offering it...

 

Kolari modification for Sony A7R/A7RII systems. It optimizes the use of rangefinder lenses for short flange distance MLC. Same would work for rangefinder cameras. Why? Because the demand of consumers to use high quality rangefinder lenses on a MLC camera WITH high MP sensor is so high. Kolari makes a good business with this. But yes, there is currently no rangefinder based high MP FF camera - that's why there is demand (ok, overall pricing is another factor here). 

[Tailwagger]

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Steve Jobs said, "A great programmer is worth more than 1,000 good programmers." Replace 'programmer' with 'engineer'. Depending upon Leica's structure it could be true for them, but they outsource, don't they.

 

I can imagine their sensor and support electronic executives trying to convince outsources to buy into the Leica paradigm today. It might drive us crazy.

 

The trouble is, and I understand this well from four decades of experience in the industry you reference... I continue to code every day one of the few remaining of my vintage... while that may have been true when processors were single threaded and operating systems could reasonably be measured in tens to hundreds of kb, the layer upon layer of complexity of software systems and interactions has grown exponentially such that they are well beyond the capability of even the most brilliant minds to fully grasp. When I speak of the difficulty of design, its because I'm channelling my own experiences in corporations large and small, good and bad. Things always look so simple, particularly to the laity from the outside, but they rarely are anything of the kind. 

 

Regardless, I wasn't impugning Leica's ingenuity, quite the contrary. I'm truly impressed by it. I'm merely noting that their resources are severely constrained and as you observe, they are dependent on working with others to supply essential technology.  Neither am I being an apologist, its  just basic reality.  

[jaapv]

You know exactly that I referred to sensor implementation which affects all kind of FF based camera systems. Why again the 36 MP as limit?! This IS already outdated - why not 42 MP (ok, the difference to 36 MP is small here, but it is a backlit sensor) or more? Why always pushing high MP intent towards the more bulky SL? 

Again: did you ever work with a modern high MP FF sensor? I don't think so. Why do you claim that only pixel peeping shows a vast improvement? This is not the case, sorry man. 

Sorry, you are not talking sense. None of the sensors you refer to would give proper results in a Leica M. If you want a high resolution sensor you need a long-register camera system with telecentric lenses. Undoubtedly sensor technology will advance and make higher resolution sensors available, but the gap to systems designed for digital will always stay.  If you want high resolution you are with the wrong brand, as long as Leica builds cameras that are retro-compatible with almost all M lenses. 

 

For people who think they need 36 or 50 MP to be even able to produce a decent photograph there are other offerings. I'm sure that when you have moved on to absolutely needing 280 MP, Leica will only have 100 and be totally useless to you.

[jaapv]

Kolari modification for Sony A7R/A7RII systems. It optimizes the use of rangefinder lenses for short flange distance MLC. Same would work for rangefinder cameras. Why? Because the demand of consumers to use high quality rangefinder lenses on a MLC camera WITH high MP sensor is so high. Kolari makes a good business with this. But yes, there is currently no rangefinder based high MP FF camera - that's why there is demand (ok, overall pricing is another factor here). 

It is insufficient. The Kolari modification only removes the AA filter, and adds a thinner IR filter, it does nothing to the microlenses. On a camera that does not have an AA filter the effect is small. It is better than nothing, though.

Only a sensor that has specially designed microlenses (i.e. sensors made for Leica) will render the full quality of Leica lenses, specifically legacy wideangles.

[pico]

The trouble is, and I understand this well from four decades of experience in the industry you reference...

I have similar experience and understand the profound complexity of most software today, but I believe the in-camera firmware of a Leica is not too complex for one individual to understand and rewrite.

Edited March 13, 2018 by pico

[jdlaing]

I have similar experience and understand the profound complexity of most software today, but I believe the in-camera firmware of a Leica is not too complex for one individual to understand and rewrite.

I wouldn’t take stock in that Pico. It’s pretty fussy stuff when it comes to dealing with the sensor.

[Tailwagger]

Fully agree with your first point - Canon fell behind and did not recover from this hit since. That Leica is a smaller company does not excuse them from implementing old sensor tech. 

 

Not an arguable point, the three year gap is historical fact. Whats not, however, is the notion that Leica implements sensor tech, old, new or otherwise. The sensor, as we all know, is out sourced to specification.  Why it is what it is, is largely unknown to us, but almost certainly what can successfully acquire is cost constrained and certain avenues, say sourcing from Sony, are not open to them.  You seem to believe that building such a device is a matter of fact sort of exercise. Forget about the design challenges, check out the cost of a state of the art fab plant. All the Leica's bodies ever made are likely not equal the cost of one.

 

The best hope for high end sensor tech in an M body, IMO, lies with Leica's relationship with Panasonic. After announcing their effort to develop an organic sensor in conjunction with Fuji back in 2013, last month, five years later, they now apparently have a working 8K video prototype. Perhaps by the time the M11 rolls around, the effort will be real and Panasonic will see enough marketing value in helping to stuff a version in an iconic brand name, that Leica might have a shot at sporting a state of the art chip.  Or not, as neither the volumes nor the effort required could likely justify such an exercise.  Either way, when it comes to the sensor, Leica is in no way master of its own fate.  Like it or not, they are at the mercy of others. 

[Tailwagger]

I have similar experience and understand the profound complexity of most software today, but I believe the in-camera firmware of a Leica is not too complex for one individual to understand and rewrite.

Perhaps you missed my point. I concur, but the software itself isn't much in this calculation.  As you cited Jobs, I merely extended the software analogy elsewhere. I'm referring to the difficulty of coupling a modern hardware stack to a series of ancient optical formulations and mechanics in the context of physical size, power and heat dissipation constraints, all neatly wrapped up in a container whose iconic shape must be maintained despite the face that was never remotely conceived of to house such stuff. Its a rather astounding achievement in terms of backward compatibility, that seems to largely go under-appreciated in some quarters.  

[Martin B]

Sorry, you are not talking sense. None of the sensors you refer to would give proper results in a Leica M. If you want a high resolution sensor you need a long-register camera system with telecentric lenses. Undoubtedly sensor technology will advance and make higher resolution sensors available, but the gap to systems designed for digital will always stay.  If you want high resolution you are with the wrong brand, as long as Leica builds cameras that are retro-compatible with almost all M lenses. 

 

For people who think they need 36 or 50 MP to be even able to produce a decent photograph there are other offerings. I'm sure that when you have moved on to absolutely needing 280 MP, Leica will only have 100 and be totally useless to you.

 

I will remind you on our discussion when Leica is implementing a high MP sensor in a M camera series (and likely you will be one of the first to upgrade). All my M lenses including my wides work perfectly fine on my 36 MP camera. But I have to agree with your latter point - so far Leica is always 1-2 steps back when it comes to electronics. Not sure why, I think that's simply not one of Leica's strengths. But I wouldn't exclude that this might change in the near future due to market pressure and who will become co-owner of Leica. Likely Leica will remain film only for me - which is also fine. 

[Chaemono]

Leica is always behind, always behind. I wonder if they had called the M10 sensor G Master if that argument would still hold.

[Martin B]

Leica is always behind, always behind. I wonder if they had called the M10 sensor G Master if that argument would still hold.

 

Not always, but when they were leading edge is a long time ago (M3 for example). If this is true what you are stating then the value of Leica is really within their older film M cameras and not in the modern digital ones. I doubt that a company which is "always behind" will survive in today's market environment in the long term. The Leica name still carries a good momentum especially for collectors these days, and I give them credit that they try to go after new markets (cellphone, the SL and the Q). But will it be sufficient - this remains to be seen and opinions will surely differ in this point. 

[Ickx]

Not always, but when they were leading edge is a long time ago (M3 for example). If this is true what you are stating then the value of Leica is really within their older film M cameras and not in the modern digital ones. I doubt that a company which is "always behind" will survive in today's market environment in the long term. The Leica name still carries a good momentum especially for collectors these days, and I give them credit that they try to go after new markets (cellphone, the SL and the Q). But will it be sufficient - this remains to be seen and opinions will surely differ in this point. 

 

I don't have any figures but I would argue that the modern M is not something mainly for collectors. They sell too many for that and it is a shelf item in many camera stores. Obviously it is not a volume item either. 

[Luke_Miller]

I don't have any figures but I would argue that the modern M is not something mainly for collectors. They sell too many for that and it is a shelf item in many camera stores. Obviously it is not a volume item either. 

 

I agree.  I shoot with the digital M for the rangefinder, since I like to manually focus.  I primarily shoot events and can focus a rangefinder more accurately when shooting quickly than I can manually focus with a DSLR or EVF.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Luke_Miller

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[M10Alpine]

Honestly after the first year with the M10 I can’t imagine what kind of improvement a M11 should have to make me spend almost € 7,000 again in the near future. I think after a M10 Monochrom I will be done with buying digital Ms for more years than ever since the M8.

 

Just looked up my digital M history:

2007 – Leica M8

2009 – Leica M9 

2011 – Leica M9-P

2013 – Leica M Monochrom Mk1 

2017 – Leica M10

 

 

I agree once the M10 Monochrome is out, like you, I will be done for some time. 

[pgk]

I have just bought a second Sony A7II for photographic work which I cannot do using my Leicas. I could quite easily have bought an A7RII which would have given me more MPixels at a higher, but in Leica terms not substantially higher, cost. But no, 24MPixels is enough for the camera's usage. What is so difficult to understand about not needing higher MPixels? If you really need more MPixels then there are alternatives.

 

I am wondering whether to email Sony and complain about their lack of understanding their customer base by failing to fit a mechanical rangefinder onto their A7/9 cameras ......