Why not more pixels in the M camera?/ 36 MP {merged}

[Martin B]

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But it is a two-way street: One might just as well ask why Nikanony cannot put their excellent sensors into a Leica-M-like (or even a Nikon-FM-like) body. so as to give you the user-experience and sensor quality on one package. That works with Leica-style compact metal RF lenses (or produce their own compact metal lenses).

 

It should not be entirely on Leica's shoulders to do all the heavy lifting. Sony could no doubt produce a coupled-RF camera for their sensor - if they chose to. Fuji could produce a FF - if they chose to. Nikanon could sweat a lot of bulk off their camera-balloons - if they chose to.

 

And I for one would give such "Leica-experience" competitive cameras a good hard look if they ever appeared.

 

I believe it is not too complicate to do this for Leica if they receive a suitable fabricated high MP sensor with thin (Leica lens compatible) cover glass. Kolarivision already does this modification well for actual Sony A7/A9 sensors to be used with Leica M glass. There might be still some little tweaks to do for improvement, but I don't see this as a problem. Canon is to my knowledge one of the few camera companies which makes their own sensors, Sony separated out its sensor manufacturing as separate business unit a few years ago. Nikon used in the past Sony sensors in their FF DSLRs but has now switched to another manufacturer for the D850. Unfortunately currently the only way to make better use of the resolution power of Leica M glass is to adapt the lenses to another branded camera with different sensor. I am looking forward to the time when this works within the same ecosystem (either with M or SL or both).

 

If your questions points to reasons why a better sensor from another manufacturer wasn't used yet in a Leica camera, the answers can vary since only Leica knows. I doubt it has technical reasons but more so business-related ones: Like price for high MP sensors (Leica might not have been willing to pay for it at this point) or non disclosure agreements between other brands which made it difficult for Leica to get in the game. A much simpler reason is that Leica just pushed out the higher MP sensor technology to the next iteration of cameras and cashes in with the currently used tech first. It's a game other brands also played, for example Canon when releasing the 5D MkIII - just mostly AF improvements but sensor remained the same. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Martin B

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[Eric1]

well, the easy answer they don't have too yet. 24mp has become the go to standard across the digital camera industry. when that bar rises, as it has begun to now, Leica will develop higher megapixel sensors. But i would caution against believing this will make your photos better. Lenses, good light, and software programs make great digital photographs. megapixels are only one part of the equation and do not instantly make ones photos better.

[LichtUndDunkelheit]

But it is a two-way street: One might just as well ask why Nikanony cannot put their excellent sensors into a Leica-M-like (or even a Nikon-FM-like) body.

 

Uh, they cant. I mean, Nikon FM, sure.

 

But Leica is the only company that owns the technology to make a M sensor. They hold the corresponding patents, such as having microlenses of different sizes in differents parts of the sensor.

 

Thats why you run into limitations when you try to use Leica glas on Sony FE cameras. Depending upon model and lens, you will get color errors at the borders of the image. Well, that and Sony uses a thick sensor glas which isnt too good for image quality with lenses computed for film either.

[jaapv]

Believe me, I was in the same spot in 2012 in Canon forums when Canon decided not to move forward with FF sensor improvements in the 5D MkIII and Nikon on the other hand released the first DSLR with higher MP and DR count, the D800(E). I was told exactly the same what you are saying here: I belong to a small minority desiring higher MP sensors and that the current tech with 22 MP is more than enough. Interestingly the big majority of forum members who said this own now a high MP sensor camera, either the 5DsR or added another brand like Nikon D810/D850 or Sony A7R/II series. The difference is more that there are not many who speak out against a mainstream and brand-addiction in a forum. That's why it is easy to say that there are only a few who want this. But when the tech is being released at some point, all those - including you - celebrate it and see it as competitive advantage. What was said earlier is then rapidly "forgotten". 

 

I also heard the same saying in 2012 that it is "impossible" to build this tech into a smaller camera body - which all went very silent when Sony released the first FF mirrorless high MP camera. It is much more the case that currently camera improvements are done incrementally to cash in as much as possible each time from the consumer (all brands are alike here). Leica simply didn't find it worth it at this point to add a better sensor in the M10 (or the SL). Focus was shown on other improvements which were well advertised for users to see a lot of value in them. 

Good to know there is a fly on the wall of Leica's board room...

Canon is a bad example in this case. Their problem was not that they were deliberately introducing new technology in slow pheses. They had their own sensor factory and they were heavily invested in obsolete machines. They needed time to finance the upgrade.

[lct]

What are microlenses doing exactly, are they really necessary? Just curious as a modded Sony sensor like that of my A7s mod has none of those microlenses but gives as good or better apparent results than my M240 with the same M lenses, including difficult ones like SA 21/3.4 or CV 21/4, and this without 6-bit coding.

[jdlaing]

What are microlenses doing exactly, are they really necessary? Just curious as a modded Sony sensor like that of my A7s mod has none of those microlenses but gives as good or better apparent results than my M240 with the same M lenses, including difficult ones like SA 21/3.4 or CV 21/4, and this without 6-bit coding.

Post a couple examples. Full sized ... not crops?

[jaapv]

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I highly doubt that the microlens layer was removed by the Kolari people. Microlenses concentrate the light in the sensels, thus increasing sensitivity and prevent crosstalk and colour bleed by reducing the incidence angle. As such, they are nor really part of the filter stack. The Kolari modification basically replaces the AA filter and adjusts the sensor positioning. The IR filter, Bayer filter and microlenses  - in that order- are left in place.

If one removes the second layer, the IR filter, the camera gets turned into an IR camera. The next step would be to remove the Bayer filter, which would turn the camera into a monochrome one  and would require different firmware. Only then do we get to the microlenses. remove those and you will have ruined the sensor.

 

I just checked the Kolari website. They only replace the low-pass filter (AA filter) by a thinner one on the A7.

They also do IR conversions, replacing the Bayer filter by a clear one.

[LichtUndDunkelheit]

What are microlenses doing exactly, are they really necessary? Just curious as a modded Sony sensor like that of my A7s mod has none of those microlenses but gives as good or better apparent results than my M240 with the same M lenses, including difficult ones like SA 21/3.4 or CV 21/4, and this without 6-bit coding.

 

Oh, whow. The Super-Angulon-M 21mm f3.4 ? That would be impressive indeed. The A7s is known for being more tolerant of Leica M wide angles than the other two camera lines, but still.

 

How was it modded ? Just replaced the sensor glas ?

 

And you dont post process ? Theres AFAIK some programs that try to fix the color shift.

 

And for the record, all modern sensors have microlenses, including of course the A7s. Just not microlenses of different types, depending upon location on the sensor.

 

Well 6 bit coding does absolutely nothing about this anyway.

[Chaemono]

I'm starting to think that those guys and gals here criticizing Leica for not giving us more megapixels may have a point. Sony is treating its users much better. It's giving them 42 MPx and G Master glass. I want that, too. So, I took some test shots this evening to see how badly Leica has been ripping me off. These are just to warm up. I will do more this weekend and probably post them over at the SL section because there is an artist/economist there who said that Mr. Porter thinks Leica lacks comparative advantage. I have no idea what this means nor who Mr. Porter is but I guess it boils down to if a company makes a 42 MPx camera it better call its lenses G Master. 

 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-x8Mwmw/

 

α7R III + FE 24-70/2.8 G Masterly resolution at 24 mm

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

ISO 400 f/2.8 @1/80 sec.

 

SL + 24-90 Vario-Elmarit-SL at 24 mm

ISO 400 f/2.8 @1/80 sec.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

And now the crops.

 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-x8Mwmw/

 

α7R III + FE 24-70/2.8 G Masterly resolution at 24 mm

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

ISO 400 f/2.8 @1/80 sec.

 

SL + 24-90 Vario-Elmarit-SL at 24 mm

ISO 400 f/2.8 @1/80 sec.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Chaemono

[Martin B]

Good to know there is a fly on the wall of Leica's board room...

Canon is a bad example in this case. Their problem was not that they were deliberately introducing new technology in slow pheses. They had their own sensor factory and they were heavily invested in obsolete machines. They needed time to finance the upgrade.

 

Canon's problem was that they focused on improving video capability in their cameras and remained complacent in their formerly leadership role for FF sensors (up to 2012). While Sony was manufacturing with a new sensor fabrication array FF sensors with a much smaller 0.18 micrometer design, Canon's fabrication lines were just able to make FF sensors with 0.5 micrometer design (the smaller the better and allowing better pixel sharing properties). This allowed Sony to become leader in the FF sensor manufacturing with introduction of Nikon's D800(E). Canon was (and maybe still is) struggling to improve in this sector since they have fallen years behind (the 50 MP sensor is not groundbreaking new, it uses technology from the 7D MkII cropped sensor). 

[lct]

Oh, whow. The Super-Angulon-M 21mm f3.4 ? That would be impressive indeed. The A7s is known for being more tolerant of Leica M wide angles than the other two camera lines, but still.

How was it modded ? Just replaced the sensor glas ?

And you dont post process ? Theres AFAIK some programs that try to fix the color shift.

And for the record, all modern sensors have microlenses, including of course the A7s. Just not microlenses of different types, depending upon location on the sensor.

Well 6 bit coding does absolutely nothing about this anyway.

 

Jaap did answer above. Both of you know a lot more than i do about sensors. I did not know that all sensors have microlenses BTW so thank you for enlightening me. About the SA 21/3.4, it does well in its own rights on the A7s mod but it is not for jpeg shooters. I have no metering issues and no italian flag but i must adjust blue hue and cyan saturation generally.  Couple of snaps below at f/3.4 for sake of illustration (full size, no crops):

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-DhxPvF7/0/10e4c64a/O/i-DhxPvF7.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-SzLrmJq/0/4d83ca6f/O/i-SzLrmJq.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-nCbMFT9/0/88f7dd6d/O/i-nCbMFT9.jpg

[hteasley]

And now the crops.

 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-x8Mwmw/

 

α7R III + FE 24-70/2.8 G Masterly resolution at 24 mm

Sony Manchester City_crop_lufv.jpg

 

ISO 400 f/2.8 @1/80 sec.

SL + 24-90 Vario-Elmarit-SL at 24 mm

Leica Manchester City_crop_lufv.jpg

ISO 400 f/2.8 @1/80 sec.

Good Lord, how could I have been so duped?

 

Selling all my Leica now. Thanks for this.

 

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

[jdlaing]

Good Lord, how could I have been so duped?

Selling all my Leica now. Thanks for this.

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

Don’t sell it. Smash it with a hammer in protest.

[Tailwagger]

Don’t sell it. Smash it with a hammer in protest.

 

And don't forget the lenses. Take them out as well. 

[jdlaing]

And don't forget the lenses. Take them out as well.

 

No no. Not the glass. We have limits.

[Lonescapes]

it is very clear from this thread and others that many use in parallel other cameras, Sony high resolution FF cameras included.

 

Leica users owning other cameras

 

+

 

Complete absence of these Leica users who in fact own high pixel bodies asking for high pixel counts in their Leicas (excepting you)

 

=

 

Most Leica users really, really don't care about having more pixels for the kind of photography they shoot with their Leicas.

 

Am I missing anything here?

[Tailwagger]

No no. Not the glass. We have limits.

 

You must. Someday you will come to understand that the needs of the few outweigh those of the many. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pedaes]

And now the crops.

 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-x8Mwmw/

 

α7R III + FE 24-70/2.8 G Masterly resolution at 24 mm

Sony Manchester City_crop_lufv.jpg

ISO 400 f/2.8 @1/80 sec.

 

SL + 24-90 Vario-Elmarit-SL at 24 mm

Leica Manchester City_crop_lufv.jpg

ISO 400 f/2.8 @1/80 sec.

 

I prefer the SL colours.

[pgk]

Leica users owning other cameras + Complete absence of these Leica users who in fact own high pixel bodies asking for high pixel counts in their Leicas (excepting you) =

 

Most Leica users really, really don't care about having more pixels for the kind of photography they shoot with their Leicas.

 

Am I missing anything here?

 

No. I use other cameras for other purposes (when an M can't be used - so underwater for example where the Sony A7 series provide a lightweight solution, though are a pain to use via their menu system). i have an M to Sony adapter but rarely bother using it - totally different shooting experience and not one that I care for.