Let battle commence........

[Guest Nowhereman]

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...M3 need special "goggled 35mm" (...cheaper than same lens without goggles in Summicron/Summilux/Summaron, that's good thing)

 

The M3 doesn't need a 35mm lens with goggles — you can use an external 35mm finder. Also, the goggled 35mm Summilux lenses are substantially more expensive than the ones without goggles — I've been looking for one.

 

 

...Black Chrome [vs] Black Paint...

 

I much prefer the black black chrome of my M10 and M6 to the black paint on the M-9P that I recently sold. The black paint has a "clammy" feel in hot weather, particularly in the tropics — I find it unpleasant. Yes, the black paint looks good — but I prefer the look of black chrome, as well its tactile quality.

_______________

Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

Edited November 25, 2017 by Nowhereman

[michaelwj]

Thanks for reiterating the information. Pristine black M4, M2, M3 Leicas are for collectors. Collecting does not seem to be the OP's objective. Besides, it is highly unlikely we can find a real black enamel M at a price that does not make a regular consumer laugh out loud or a collector cry.

 

You might know I have a couple black enamels, a button rewind M2 and an M4. As the frequency of popping nitro pills increases, the likelihood of mine showing up for sale at reasonable price increases. If only I could hide sales from rich collectors.

 

 

 

While pristine black paint Ms are astronomically expensive, mild edge wear brings the price down considerably. For example, a black paint M4 with minor edge wear can be had for less than a new M-A. Consumers are buying the M-A, so it's not "laugh out load" territory (yet). On the other hand, original black paint M2s or M3s are crazy town, making the black paint M4 a relative bargain.

 

While the OP doesn't seem to be a collector, getting yourself a 60th birthday present suggests something "special".

 

I'm well aware of your black paint M2 and M4, the M2 button rewind is especially beautiful!

[pico]

[... good rational omitted ...]

I'm well aware of your black paint M2 and M4, the M2 button rewind is especially beautiful!

 

I got in deeper by finding a black enamel Abrahamsson Rapidwinder made for the M2. It was sold to me by an esteemed  member here. What a wonderful device! A great tribute to Tom Abrahamsson's talent.

Edited November 25, 2017 by pico

[Herr Barnack]

So M4-2 and M4-P still decent cameras despite a little more budget?

 

Yes - without question.

[pgk]

Besides, it is highly unlikely we can find a real black enamel M at a price that does not make a regular consumer laugh out loud or a collector cry.

 

I have two M4s - a black chrome version and a black paint one. Neither are in collectable condition, in fact both are very much 'users' (both have film in them) and whilst worth something, for sure, I doubt either would attract a high price (please anyone, feel free to prove me wrong ). That said there aren't many around which are reasonably priced these days and I suspect that this is because those that should be, are in use .....

[sblitz]

M4 ..... one's before have old fashioned film loading, whereas M4 and every film M since have the faster one. M4 viewfinder doesn't flare, problem after M4 until you get to M7/MP/MA where it was addressed (had an M6 and got rid of it because of that). Before M4, knob rewind, nice slow and contemplative, the modern crank on the M4 is fast, and the same crank used on every model since .... except MP/MA when Leica went back to the knob for retro reasons, I suppose. Lastly, the M4 is built like a tank. Had an M9 and M4 in my Billingham camera bag, rolled off my chair onto a wood floor -- guess which camera needed the rangefinder to be adjusted and was fine? Yes, M4 was perfect. Story was that the M4 was the favorite Leica for cameramen in Vietnam once it came out in 1967, because it could handle the environment. You will miss the 75mm frame lines but I have shot mine with 75mm and I can guess fairly well, never missed the core of what I was trying to capture. M4-2 is not quite as strong, and the M4-P was the attempt to shore up the product and make it more compatible with the quality of the M4, but somewhere in that line the condensor changed and the flare popped up. The M4-P is the M6 w/o the meter.

 

Hope this helps ......

[lencap]

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Without trying to break your budget I was in a similar position a short time ago.  To make a long story short, I went with a mint condition pre-owned M-A and a new Summarit 35mm lens, both from a well known Leica dealer.  I was VERY PLEASED with that decision.  The new camera is a gem, and the Summarit lens is VERY UNDERRATED.  The combination worked exceptionally well and provided stunning B&W prints, enlarged to 16x20 with ease.

 

Unfortunately, my eyesight has become worse (senior citizen), and I can no longer guaranty pulling sharp focus.  So, I wound up selling the combo that I bought about a year ago.  Since the camera was near mint, as was the lens, I wound up getting just about every penny back from the new owner.   When you consider the unknown condition of an older Leica, the likely need for CLA and perhaps more, going newer pre-owned seems to be a very good option.  It's not much more expensive that buying a 30 year old camera, but the newer gear is wonderful.  And if you change your mind, or have to sell, the resale risk isn't very high.

 

Either way, you'll enjoy shooting film.  I LOVED the M-A; all Leica, not an electronic part in it, and built to outlast my grandchildren.  I think you'll love it, as other posters have suggested.

Edited November 26, 2017 by lencap

[IkarusJohn]

I have an M-A and love it. If that, or a secondhand MP isn’t in your budget, then the M4 is the obvious choice, I’d say.

 

You don’t mention lenses - these can be terrifyingly expense, but they do hold their value well. For me, the best combination is the 28mm (it basically fills the entire frame) and the 50mm (a Leica sweet spot). Remember that as ISO is set for the entire roll of your film, having the option of faster apertures is appealing, but does put the price up.

 

The 50 and 28 Summicrons (they’re f/2) are worth looking out for, if you can find them at reasonable prices.

 

You should then factor in a trip for your new camera and lenses to Wetzlar for servicing ...

Edited November 26, 2017 by IkarusJohn

[sblitz]

dropping back in with my 2 cents, if MA is an option for you grab it -- newer, better focusing, MUCH brighter rangefinder window, etc .... 

[MarkP]

Well you could be really obsessive and find one made in your birth year.  

Something to get old with you.

 

I spent some time trying to find a pristine SS chrome M3 and lens made in my birth year (1962) but eventually gave up.

I've stuck with my M7 for film with which I'm very happy.  M-A is still under consideration. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by MarkP

[105012]

Many fine and true thoughts by everyone, my two cents are from I suspect someone following a less well travelled path!

 

I have a pair of M3's and an M5 and have spent time with a range of other (digital and film) M's. The M3 for my money has the best viewfinder, best film loading (you cannot make a mistake), best design features (like the window frames to prevent stray fingers from smearing them and the easy ability to 'turn off' the range finder patch by easy location and smear preventing frame) and quietest shutter and operation if spring based mechanism (double stroke and transitional single stroke).

 

Love the M5 as well, when I do pick it up it reminds me of what a so well designed device it is. However, the M3's are the winners! 

Edited November 26, 2017 by 105012

[Mute-on]

I just want a button rewind M2 because I think it’s the most beautiful film M.

 

I have an M2, MP and BP M4. The M2 is the prettiest and has the nicest viewfinder with those 3 uncluttered, full sized framelines. Utter bliss.

 

The others are a distant second, but I admit the film loading is easier. So, get a quick load for the M2 and enjoy nirvana

[01af]

Three years ago, I figured I wanted a film M, to go alongside my digital Ms. I contemplated them all, from (used) M3 to (new or used) M7 or MP—and ended up with a brand-new shiny silver-chrome Leica M-A. I'm enjoying it tremedously and couldn't be happier. Best decision I ever made with regard to camera purchases.

[250swb]

Did cramming more framlines in make it more useful or less?

 

I see you have already adopted emotive terminology in using 'cramming' to describe a perfectly good system. Perhaps you had it implied by somebody else, shame on them.

 

To be honest I don't know why so many people are trying to confuse you in a choice of camera. The whole 'my favourite camera is...' needs far more stress placed on the 'my'.You will probably be using a Leica rangefinder camera in new ways, a fresh view on the world, so the whole 'if your favourite lens is....' business should be redundant to the discussion as well. Just take a stab at a do-it-all lens (28, 35, or 50) and start with that in mind. You want as many framelines as possible and this will give you the versatility you need to progress and remain enthusiastic. You don't want to be buying a body with a limited number of framelines and then find it is a whole new level of complexity to use a lens outside of those.

 

So if you are budgeting the sensible choices would be M4-P, or M6. If you have an open budget any of the recent or current film body variants, M-P, M-A, or M7. The world is your oyster with any of those. The grit in your oyster would be to chose an M3, M2, or anything weird such as an M5. These are excellent cameras, nothing wrong with them at all if you want to get ultra serious, play, or pose. But in context of later offerings they are far more specialist in use, often more awkward to load, and harder to find good examples without mechanical issues (although there are many well cared for cameras available you don't want to be coming back to the forum and being blithely told 'oh you just need to send it for a CLA').

 

Keep it simple, have as many framelines available as you can get, buy a lens, buy some film, job done.

Edited November 27, 2017 by 250swb

[IkarusJohn]

Good advice.

[Fotoklaus]

I've not quite got a handle on the M4's, am I correct in thinking the M4 was a worthy successor to the 3/2 but the 4P and 4 -2 were slightly more budget orientated ?

The M4-2 ist the most underrated M (beside the M5) in my opinion. It´s internals are the same as in the later M6 and MP. I have a CLAd M4-2, and it feels and works as smooth

as my M4 and M6. It has the improved steel gears to work with a motordrive (but I won´t use a motordrive with any M). A M4-P is actually an M6 without a meter.

The last classic M with brass internals and mounted by hand is the M4. But from the view of using: It really doesn´t matter. The condition of the camera is much more important, than the

number on it, in my opinion.

[Fotoklaus]

There are so many stupid rumors about that camera. That the letters are just printed on and not being engraved, and so on. That´s all B.........it.

It is made as solid and reliable as any other analogue M-camera. And of course all letters are perfectly engraved and filled out with paint.

 

Here are (poor smartphone) pics of mine:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[Nevik]

Well guys thanks for all your help, I have taken it on board and sort of ignored it at the same time, not because the advice wasnt good but because I thought I'm looking at this the wrong way.

It was going to be either a M 3, 2 or 4. So because none are going to be spring chicks I reckon condition and history probably out weigh all the pro's and cons of each model, although I was  favouring the M 2 in the end.

Despite that I've just hit the button for a M4 - P.

Thanks again, now its which lenses do I get? Anyone got a can opener I have an old tin of worms to share :-)

[pgk]

Thanks again, now its which lenses do I get? Anyone got a can opener I have an old tin of worms to share :-)

 

And just to add to the can of woms I'd suggest as a starter lens a 35mm or 50mm Summarit - good value (for Leica), excellent lenses, small and light. What's not to like?

Edited November 27, 2017 by pgk

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[a.noctilux]

Good choice of M4-P .

M-A for a fraction of the price.

With benefit of rewind crank if this matter.

A CLA may be a good idea to have peace of mind.

 

I second pgk for Summarit-M family 50mm or 35mm.

 

Lately, as fan of 50mm lenses, I discovered the Summarit-M 2.5/50mm, second hand.

This is a big good surprise with such tiny lens : small, light with "best possible IQ" for the price, it's a bargain.

Now it replace my Elmar-M 2.8/50 which was very small "retracted".

 

Soon Summarit-M 2.5/35mm will replace my trusty Summaron 2.8/35mm.

 

...

Viewfinder of M4-P may be a bit dim compared to M-A /MP,

and may flare at some lighting (contre-jour)

 

 

This old/used M4-P with goggled Summaron 2.8/35 mm was sold some years ago, nice combo to use

 

 

I had the red logo " black-out" with texture

Edited November 27, 2017 by a.noctilux