Next, a full frame upgrade, ML,

[rosuna]

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Yes, they are to the select group that owns/wants to afford M lenses.

You confirm my opinion: it will certainly appeal to a percentage of M owners/affectionadoes, thus eat into M sales, and fall flat on it's face in the rest of the market for lack of AF, features, and high price. Result: less M sales and a camera that won't amortize the R&D.

The advent of the CL, which does wonderfully well with M lenses, only worsens this prospect.

Leica will decide whether it is feasible or wise, but I think their business sense will prevail in this case, attractive as the idea may be for the occupants of the Leica M niche.

 

 

Leica typically sells products lacking features and with high prices. They don't need to sell many units (it is a few units, high margins business). That is the playground. Leica will not sell many more SL cameras, or S cameras or M cameras... they are multiplying the number of varieties, on a shared platform (electronic components) and three mounts (L, M, S). That is Leica.

 

The CL reinforces the APS-C L branch of the L system, widening its appeal, attracting new users, in spite of the TL camera (differences only in the interface and type of EVF). It was the weakest part of Leica's portfolio and now it is a very attractive system. The same will happen with the M system if a ML camera is offered. 

 

The SL and S cameras are a bit different because those systems are presented as "professional" systems, the cameras and lenses are the most expensive in the catalogue and I see difficult to attract more users with body variants (only different internal specifications among S cameras and different prices).

 

The SL/TL system and M system, aimed at aficionados, are ideal for varieties. Even more, the best system for that is the M system, with a strong differentiation between OVF and EVF (it is to be seen if the S system offers this in the future and how). The CL/TL in comparison is more superficial. 

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[jaapv]

Umm... I don't think the TL is aimed at affectionados - more likely the modernistic lifestyle type of customer.

It just depends how Leica formulates their lineup. I think an ML would drive the RF-M into a very narrow niche indeed , much on par with the film Ms. The ML would become abandonware soon after. But I am sure that its praises would be sung on this forum - and in precious few other places.

[rosuna]

Umm... I don't think the TL is aimed at affectionados - more likely the modernistic lifestyle type of customer.

It just depends how Leica formulates their lineup. I think an ML would drive the RF-M into a very narrow niche indeed , much on par with the film Ms. The ML would become abandonware soon after. But I am sure that its praises would be sung on this forum - and in precious few other places.

 

 

There are bad people everywhere. Enemies of Leica type. 

[jaapv]

Isn’t this a bit anthropomorphic?

[lct]

There are bad people everywhere. Enemies of Leica type. 

 

Or lovers of electronically controlled Godzilla lenses . Just kidding but people who can afford M lenses want the best compact FF body for the latters. Some of them like rangefinders but more and more prefer mirrorless cameras. Are they prepared to spend little fortunes to get good enough results with more or less soft corners and lack of auto image magnification? To ask the question is to answer it IMHO. 

[jaapv]

The SL was designed with M lenses in mind.  You won't find Sony problems there. Read the release documentation about the design of the SL sensor.

 

I think that the M 10 OVF has very poor image magnification...

It was implemented on the M240 to compensate for the lower quality EVF. It is debatable whether it is very useful except in special circumstances on a good EVF like the SL has, even more so on the better ones of the future.

In fact, were it implemented on the hypothetical ML, there would be a group of users who would protest loudly until it were removed, like Video.

 

Following your post, the best thing Leica could do is shrink and M-style redesign the next SL.

[rosuna]

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Following your post, the best thing Leica could do is shrink and M-style redesign the next SL.

 

 

No, because the big (monster size) SL lenses need a SL-like body, with a grip, large battery, a mass and size related to that of the lenses... 

 

A SL camera designed for M lenses is a ML camera, but the small size, mass and grip would make this ML inconvenient for use with SL lenses.

 

I don't want a larger than M camera (like the SL) for my supersmall M lenses. I want an even smaller (and lighter) than M10 camera! 

[Einst_Stein]

No, because the big (monster size) SL lenses need a SL-like body, with a grip, large battery, a mass and size related to that of the lenses... 

 

A SL camera designed for M lenses is a ML camera, but the small size, mass and grip would make this ML inconvenient for use with SL lenses.

 

I don't want a larger than M camera (like the SL) for my supersmall M lenses. I want an even smaller (and lighter) than M10 camera!

 

Agree. Leica M as a manual forcus platform is lighter and simpler, more “minimalist”. There is no competition. Look at Sony, their lens is still the size of DSLR. O better than what they try to crtitic.

 

But the manual focus M platform alone is not enough to cover the needed market space. The young generation is more likely to accept the Auto everything platform, —, nor just auto focus auto exposure, (some crazy future may even be AI droven, but that is another topic). This is where more critical for Leica future. I think CL is Leica first success to really secure their future. Now they should expand it to cover all space, including FF. SL is the answer to cover their R platform, ML is required to cover the M plaform.

 

The SL, ML, and CL will nice cover all market space: SL for professionals that need the DSLR , R-platform of full capability and can tolerate the size, ML + ML afapter for the lengendary M phils, and CL for the mass majority. New Leicans can buy any lens and use it on any camera.

[eraydinc]

Summary: Everyone wants a full frame CL.

 

 

500px.com/eraydinc

[jaapv]

I don’t. The camera and lenses would be larger and the quality not significantly better. And a new set of lenses- again? No thanks ...

[jaapv]

Agree. Leica M as a manual forcus platform is lighter and simpler, more “minimalist”. There is no competition. Look at Sony, their lens is still the size of DSLR. O better than what they try to crtitic.

But the manual focus M platform alone is not enough to cover the needed market space. The young generation is more likely to accept the Auto everything platform, —, nor just auto focus auto exposure, (some crazy future may even be AI droven, but that is another topic). This is where more critical for Leica future. I think CL is Leica first success to really secure their future. Now they should expand it to cover all space, including FF. SL is the answer to cover their R platform, ML is required to cover the M plaform.

The SL, ML, and CL will nice cover all market space: SL for professionals that need the DSLR , R-platform of full capability and can tolerate the size, ML + ML afapter for the lengendary M phils, and CL for the mass majority. New Leicans can buy any lens and use it on any camera.

And, as I said, the M RF will be dead

[rosuna]

Summary: Everyone wants a full frame CL.

 

 

 

Impossible with those battleship-size SL lenses... 

 

[rosuna]

[rosuna]

[eraydinc]

Impossible with those battleship-size SL lenses...

 

Little bit bigger than CL is OK

 

 

500px.com/eraydinc

[Einst_Stein]

I don’t. The camera and lenses would be larger and the quality not significantly better. And a new set of lenses- again? No thanks ...

Frankly, it is absolutely zero relevant who dont want or how many people dont want ML

Only how many want want is relevant.

Believe me, 0.1 million people interested in ML will worth more than 10 billion people who dont,

sorry, including you Jaapv.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Einst_Stein

[Einst_Stein]

Impossible with those battleship-size SL lenses... 

 

With this lens, the size of CL or SL or S is competly irrelevant.

CL will be prefectly OK too. SL will not have any leading edge over CL.

[jaapv]

Photoshop can be helpful

Frankly, it is absolutely zero relevant who dont want or how many people dont want ML

Only how many want want is relevant.

Believe me, 0.1 million people interested in ML will worth more than 10 billion people who dont,

sorry, including you Jaapv.

Reading the thread helps; this was a response to the post above it.

BTW, can you please point to the research that gives 100.000 potential buyers? That will make Leica’s boardroom crack a few bottles of Sekt.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jankap]

The young generation is more likely to accept the Auto everything platform, —, nor just auto focus auto exposure, (some crazy future may even be AI droven, but that is another topic). 

 

Two interesting entries in this respect were/are the following cameras Lytro Illum and the Light L16.

Jan

[jaapv]

Panasonic use 4K to achieve post-focus, I.e. take an image and choose the plane of focus in the computer. Or blend a number of selected planes of focus to create a discontinuous DOF.

The technique is to cycle fast AF during a 4K burst.

Not something one could do with “old-fashioned” MF lenses, but another reason for the young and modern photographer to choose an autofocus mirrorless over a hypothetical M EVF camera.

Another thing that I don’t see Leica doing is a hi-res mode, I.e. doubling the resolution with an double exposure shifting the sensor slightly using IBIS.

Leica will not implement such modernisms easily, making the acceptance of their more traditional products limited.