I burnt through my shutter cloth :(

[wlaidlaw]

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I'm not sure Aperture are exactly the "guy at the end of the road". I don't whether you are new to Leica and have bought into the whole luxury lifestyle thing but this idea that Leica is not a "value-for-money" affair is not an age old truism. Even now, I don't think the core M products are unreasonably priced (£3000 for a 50 Summilux is comparable to the price charged by other manufacturers for their "top" lenses and has the benefit of being considerably smaller than those) but I'm rather uncomfortable with the idea of having the piss taken out of me if I ask Leica to undertake even the most straightforward of repairs. Having never owned a luxury watch, I'll have to ask: is it the norm for a very basic repair or a general service to cost the equivalent of a third or more of the value of the product?

 

Yes manufacturer service of expensive mechanical watches are absurdly expensive and often not even competent. I had an excellent watchmaker in Lewes who sadly is no longer with us. He did the full 7 year apprenticeship at Jaeger le Coultre and ended up as service manager for Rolex UK before a parting of the ways due to his political Trotskyite activities and setting up on his own. He used to charge £100 for a complete overhaul with a year's warranty but before he retired from ill health, was struggling as a lot of Swiss companies will no longer sell spare parts to third party repairers.

 

Luckily for us, Leica is in the EU, where that behaviour is banned, otherwise I suspect that Leica main agencies would become the sole port of call for repairs. Before he retired, Peter at CRR in Luton, the well known Leica repairer, said he was having difficulty sourcing spare parts. Now it may be that Leica themselves are running out of many parts, for example M6TTL circuit boards (not available) and no longer commissioning re-manufacture of obsolete spare parts, like they used to do, e.g. M3 rangefinder parts. I would bet, if there was the will, there would be some small company in China, who could clone the M6 circuit board in a few days and run off copies, at a price less than they cost Leica to make originally, in Portugal. If they can clone something as complicated as an iPhone, the very basic M6 board would be child's play. 

 

Wilson

Edited September 7, 2017 by wlaidlaw

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[wattsy]

Yes manufacturer service of expensive mechanical watches are absurdly expensive and often not even competent.

 

 

Leica seemed to have embraced that approach in full.

[lb1800]

I'm not sure Aperture are exactly the "guy at the end of the road". I don't whether you are new to Leica and have bought into the whole luxury lifestyle thing but this idea that Leica is not a "value-for-money" affair is not an age old truism. Even now, I don't think the core M products are unreasonably priced (£3000 for a 50 Summilux is comparable to the price charged by other manufacturers for their "top" lenses and has the benefit of being considerably smaller than those) but I'm rather uncomfortable with the idea of having the piss taken out of me if I ask Leica to undertake even the most straightforward of repairs. Having never owned a luxury watch, I'll have to ask: is it the norm for a very basic repair or a general service to cost the equivalent of a third or more of the value of the product?

 

 

I'm not dissing Aperture (or local car mechanics) and I think you know what I'm saying - that they are not the manufacturer.

 

I've owned Leica's for about 10 years, so yes I suppose I am still quite new to Leica

 

On watches - I have a brand name watch that cost me about £2,500 15 years ago (but now retails for £7- 8k, I believe). I had it serviced recently for the thick end of £1,000.

 

The service is expensive - but they ARE servicing them. Not many manufacturers of anything are still servicing their products after 60+ years......

[Mark II]

The problem with Leica servicing is that it is simultaneously insanely expensive and insanely slow. The prices would be tolerable if the turn-around was fast or if they provided loan equipment for the duration of the repair - which can easily be several months.

 

Leica’s paid service and support is completely out of line with their pricing and branding, and a major reason why Leica equipment should not be relied on unless you can afford to keep duplicate lenses and bodies.

 

(And I have hit this problem *twice* this year, once for a paid repair, and once for a faulty new lens where they initially wanted to take both camera and lens for 2 months - although they eventually agreed to replace the lens.)

[SilentShutter]

A few years ago at the Grand Canyon on a sunny day I was using my M9 while my wife used my M6. Then she asked about changing a setting and turned the camera lens-up. So I said "This one's easier" and traded cameras for the rest of the trip. No damage to camera or wife.

 

Also no damage to you because you know when to obey to your wife.  

[lincoln_m]

Ib1800, have you got your MA back from repair? It's been 9 weeks for my M7 since I agreed to the shutter release repair. I've emailed on Sunday but no reply so far this week. Their rules say they should inform if it's going to be longer than 6 weeks.

Lincoln

[lb1800]

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Ib1800, have you got your MA back from repair? It's been 9 weeks for my M7 since I agreed to the shutter release repair. I've emailed on Sunday but no reply so far this week. Their rules say they should inform if it's going to be longer than 6 weeks.

Lincoln

No, I haven’t heard back from them (they’ve had the camera around two months). I’ve been focussed on other things so haven’t chased them.

[lincoln_m]

OK I'll let you know if/when I get my M7 back as supposedly I'm ~ 2 weeks ahead in the line.

It sort of means we need 3 Leica's. 1 main one, 1 backup, and one to act as the backup when you have one in for CLA.

MP £2200, M7 £1200, M2 £700 expensive as a hobby, but I chose that.

 

Dread to think what it's like for pros with £6K M10 or SL and backup cameras.

[lincoln_m]

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

lb1800,

Update: My M7 arrived direct from Leica Germany on Thursday via UPS. 

The blocking shutter seems to be fixed, I'll know for sure when I get the film developed.

I won't risk a soft release on an M7 again just in case that broke the trigger.

The rangefinder was also cleaned and adjusted. Looks very clear and dust free now. Might even be a new eye piece?

They seemed to leave the black tape, I have over the red dot, untouched so they probably adjusted the rangefinder cam with the top plate off or it didn't need it.

 

The flashing dots work correctly now i.e. don't appear when the iso is set to DX because the optical reader is working so no flashing bottom dot.

Although they say they don't air freight the camera with the Lithium batteries in, it came back with the batteries I sent. The shutter speed was flashing bright (not seen that before but it's how it should warn you of low battery) then showed "bc" after about 5 shots out in the cold 5C today. They were unused passed date batteries I'd put before it went away. So the electronics are working better than before.

 

Hopefully the film won't have any blank negatives now.

 

This might mean your MA will be returned just before Christmas?

Regards, Lincoln

[wlaidlaw]

Lincoln, 

 

It is only lithium ion (Li-ion) batteries that cannot be airfreighted. The non-rechargeable lithium-iron 3.0V 1/3DL batteries (and the CR123A in the motor drive) in the M7 are not and have never been a fire risk. However, I would not be permitted to airfreight my M7 with Motor-M, if it contained the rechargeable RCR123A/ 16340 batteries that I normally use, as they are Li-ion. Pleased to hear you got your M7 back. 

 

Wilson

[wattsy]

Lincoln, 

 

It is only lithium ion (Li-ion) batteries that cannot be airfreighted. The non-rechargeable lithium-iron 3.0V 1/3DL batteries (and the CR123A in the motor drive) in the M7 are not and have never been a fire risk.

Wilson

 

 

Lithium-iron (LiFePO4) is a rechargeable battery technology (though, as you suggest, one that is more chemically stable and intrinsically safer than other types of rechargeable Li-ion battery). The non rechargeable 1/3DL batteries are of the "lithium metal" type (or simply referred to as lithium batteries).

[wlaidlaw]

Ian, 

 

My error. I should have said Lithium-Manganese not Lithium-Iron for the non-rechargeable types. The lithium is present as lithium tetrachloroaluminate, not the very reactive lithium metal as in Li-ion batteries, hence their increased safety and low fire risk. I still would not care to argue the point with an airport security person, while he/she is in storm trooper mode. 

 

Wilson

[lb1800]

OP here. Camera is back in the UK (though I've not collected it yet) so about 12 weeks turnaround. 

 

If the service department for film Ms in Germany is 1 person, and that person is dealing with 1 camera a day, it would suggest that there were 50 - 60 cameras in the line ahead of mine. Or they just let them pile up and do them in batches....

 

On a practical level, the delay didn't really bother me as I have a second (and third!) body. But I do feel that it doesn't reflect well on Leica's attitude to looking after film M customers. Can any "old timers" comment on how long a full strip down and service via Germany would have taken back in the day?

[wlaidlaw]

My only previous experience with M7 service was with Leica UK in Milton Keynes in the early 2000's. It was dire and as often as not the camera came back un-repaired or not repaired properly.  Given that this was a "Friday" camera and under passport guarantee, you might have expected that it warranted a little extra effort. I gave up, sold it and bought a Contax G2. Later, in 2005, I had another very poor experience with Milton Keynes and my Digilux 2, where they kept it for three months and did nothing to it, returning it with the same faulty sensor that it went there with. That time, at least I had my dealer, who was an retired manager of Leica UK service, batting for me and he had a brand new Digilux 2 in my hands within the week. It has taken me 16 years to get back to owning an M7. This one has obviously been back to Solms/Wetzlar for a service and upgrade, as it is a 2000 year camera, albeit with very little wear but has the later type optical DX reader and to date has worked impeccably. 

 

My more recent experiences with Solms and Wetzlar service have been excellent but I suspect you may be correct and there is only a very small, possibly singular number of film camera repairmen there. Unless a film camera were under warranty, I would always use Malcolm Taylor or Alan Starkie in the UK. I cannot recommend the man in Nice, France, as he took nearly 4 months to do a straightforward CLA on my Model II, excluding the rangefinder which was not in need of service. 

 

Wilson

[wattsy]

My more recent experiences with Solms and Wetzlar service have been excellent but I suspect you may be correct and there is only a very small, possibly singular number of film camera repairmen there. Unless a film camera were under warranty, I would always use Malcolm Taylor or Alan Starkie in the UK.

 

 

"Possibly singular". In 2015 I was told by Leica UK that there was only one person working on film camera repairs at Wetzlar. That may have changed since (I seem to recall being told that one of the repair people was off sick) but, at best, it is still going to be a tiny number. That and Leica's current unwillingness to do any repairs without an obligatory £800 CLA has, for me, taken a bit of the shine off owning an M film camera.

[wlaidlaw]

"Possibly singular". In 2015 I was told by Leica UK that there was only one person working on film camera repairs at Wetzlar. That may have changed since (I seem to recall being told that one of the repair people was off sick) but, at best, it is still going to be a tiny number. That and Leica's current unwillingness to do any repairs without an obligatory £800 CLA has, for me, taken a bit of the shine off owning an M film camera.

 

Ian, 

 

When you think for that price, Alan Starkie taught himself how to repair a 70mm RF Combat Graflex from the US Army manual, then did a total strip down and repair, including making new parts, plus servicing of all three lenses, the £800 CLA sounds a bit like a profit centre to me. 

 

Wilson

[wattsy]

the £800 CLA sounds a bit like a profit centre to me. 

 

 

Absolutely. I suspect that the repair department (not just film camera related) have been instructed to maximise income, possibly to attempt to offset recent losses in that department due to the various "warranty" recalls and repairs (M9 sensors, M240 strap lugs, S lens AF failures.. the list goes on and on). 

[earleygallery]

I don't think Leica actually want to work on older cameras any more, so they quote a price which ensures you take your business elsewhere, whilst at the same time still being able to claim they offer full support and service for all models.

 

With all the issues they have with current models (sensor replacements etc.) they're probably very happy to let work go to the independents

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[UliWer]

It's not my experience that they don't want to work on older models - I had a CLA for my M2 and a rigid Summicron done by Customer Care. It's true they are expensive - though that's also true for repairs of digital bodies or even minor parts as fixing a rubber eye-piece of an external viewfinder. Though we learned that already when we bought these items.

 

May be they are understaffed at the Customer Care. This doesn't only apply to the repairs themselves but also to the times and ways of handling. With the prices they charge they will have some profit from their repair business - so they should also invest. It will pay back by customer's content.

Edited December 4, 2017 by UliWer

[wlaidlaw]

I don't think Leica actually want to work on older cameras any more, so they quote a price which ensures you take your business elsewhere, whilst at the same time still being able to claim they offer full support and service for all models.

 

With all the issues they have with current models (sensor replacements etc.) they're probably very happy to let work go to the independents

 

James,

 

M7 is a current camera, where in theory at least, you can still buy a new one, plus the M-A and M-P 

 

Wilson