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I burnt through my shutter cloth :(


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If you are prepared to drive about an hour from Antibes to Tourtour, I could lend you another film Leica, say an M4 or CL. 

 

Wilson

 

Wilson, How very decent of you. Regards, Ron

 

For the non-oldsters among the readers: The sun/shutter problem plagued Leica most of its life; obviously the lightweight cloth shutter had numerous advantages. The Contax advantage was the metal shutter in those years.  My IIIC had a locally applied square patch on the shutter all the time I owned it. ron

Edited by Ronazle
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Pico, it was mainly on Auto that caused the shutter block, wind-on issue. I think the manual speeds were better. Running the batteries down low probably didn't help. As I don't use it very often they were about 2 years past date. The M7 is bad at telling you the battery status as it seems the shutter can fire even with low batteries but the dead battery light never came on. There was definitely a mechanical issue too. It's been 2.5 weeks and no email from Leica I'll check my junk mail in case. Lincoln

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lb1800,

As a guide I just received a confirmation of receipt email from wetzlar customer service so that is 2.5 weeks since Leica Mayfair had my M7 for repair (14th August ). They said they'll let me know the test results soon. I've never sent anything to Leica before so I'm not familiar with their procedures. I hope your shutter curtain repair also goes smoothly. I'm expecting a 2-3 month repair time so I've been enjoying using my M2 again and guessing the exposure for 400TX and now TMax100 while remembering to replace the lens cap between shots. If the M2 needed a £600 repair it would be a total write off.

Lincoln

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lb1800,

As a guide I just received a confirmation of receipt email from wetzlar customer service so that is 2.5 weeks since Leica Mayfair had my M7 for repair (14th August ). They said they'll let me know the test results soon. I've never sent anything to Leica before so I'm not familiar with their procedures. I hope your shutter curtain repair also goes smoothly. I'm expecting a 2-3 month repair time so I've been enjoying using my M2 again and guessing the exposure for 400TX and now TMax100 while remembering to replace the lens cap between shots. If the M2 needed a £600 repair it would be a total write off.

Lincoln

 

Thanks Lincoln. That's helpful. I'm also getting a little twitchy over replacing the lens cap. Roll on winter, I say.

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lb1800,

Great news by e-mail just now. The estimate for what looks like a major repair of my M7 shutter system and complementary (DX headed and clean and lube and adjust) all for about 1/6th of what I was hinting above previously. I called them and gave my card details straight away. The list of things to repair and clean covers 2 pages but they say the work is 0.7hrs perhaps that's to fix the shutter mechanism the CLA and DX are complementary and would surely take some time to complete. Anyway I'm very happy with the response so far.

Lincoln

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I am tempted to send my M7 in to have the DX reader changed and a CLA but given the service experience with my last M7 (admittedly with the useless Leica UK at Milton Keynes) I wonder if the motto "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" should apply. Occasionally you have to give my M7 a gentle tap to wake up its DX but I can live with that. 

 

Wilson

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Wilson,The DX reader was the least of my problems. I've been manually setting the DX for the past 7 years. But Leica did point out that even with it manually set the bottom LED (Ev comp light) still blinks when the DX reader is reading wrong. I used to find that more worrying as it could mean the exposure was wrong because it thinks there is an EV setting when there was not, but the exposure seemed OK even for slide film with less latitude. The springs on the contacts aren't strong because you need to be able to remove the film after it's finished. I wonder if the optical reader will use the battery more quickly?

 

To be fair to the old M.K. Leica C.S. they did fix an issue I had with my M6TTL where on bright days I would see dark lines in the sky. It turned out to be the 1/1000th setting where the gap is only 2mm so any muck on the shutter curtain edge would mean less light (dark line) at that point as the gap traverses the length of the 36mm frame. ----|} ||

 

Any of the rubber curtain Ms could suffer from muck on the edges of the shutter, even the OPs M-A or has the rubberised shutter changed since the M3 in 1953 through M6 , MP & M7 and now the M-A?

 

Lincoln

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Lincoln,

 

My father always told me off if he caught me using 1/1000 on any Leica or the R&S I had at the time. His theory (wrong as it turns out) was that 1/1000 tends to put wrinkles in or stretch the curtains. I wonder why Leica still use fabric curtains for their film cameras, when they use the superior metal blade shutters on the digital M's. With the bright sunlight we had over last week-end in the UK, I kept having to stop down more than I wanted, from the DoF point of view, with the 1/1000 top shutter speed on 100 ISO film. 

 

If my M7 reads a different DX speed to the manually set ISO I put in (don't trust DX), I get the manually set film speed showing on switch on but blinking. If the DX matches the set film speed, I will get a brief steady display of the film speed. If my M7 has been sitting for a couple of days it sometimes needs a gentle tap against the heel of my hand, to get the DX speed matching the set film speed. I forgot to clean the DX contacts when I last changed a film near my cleaning gear. I use a product called Servisol switch cleaner and lubricant, which is first class on things like camera power switches, lens contacts and DX contacts. I have a small soft fibreglass brush that I spray with Servisol and then brush over the contacts to remove any contamination or dirt. My recently acquired M7 seems a lot better than my previous one. 

 

Wilson

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Wilson,

My understanding is that the curtains move at the same speed but that the gap between is different and controlled by the delay in firing the second curtain. i.e. the shorter settings (1/1000) should be the same stress as the longer settings (1/60) as the curtain speeds are the same. I guess the accuracy of the actual timing get's less with the shorter settings.

 

Ah I missed the subtle flashing ISO (instead of steady) when shutter cocked and you turn on the M7 but it reads a different iso to the one set, say 400. I had noticed the flashing EV bottom LED when it misreads the iso during normal shooting. Hopefully there will be less issues with the optical reader.

 

Of course no such electrical issues with an M-A (M4, M2, M3) but possibly similar shutter speed issues after much use.

 

Lincoln

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Hello Everybody,

 

The reason for the original Leica shutter with curtains made of rubberized cotton is that the shutter is a big, overbuilt, slow moving mechanism with a light weight, durable shutter cloth that lasts a long time & works well.

 

There are a lot of Leica shutters from the 1920's & more modern that are still all or mostly original that are working fine.

 

Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't mean that it needs to be changed.

 

High quality building bricks that are made today are not any better than the high quality bricks that the Romans used 2,000 years ago. 

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

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Titanium blade shutters can be built with service lives of up to 400,000 actions, way beyond what any film camera is likely to need in its lifetime. They will run reliably up to 1/4000 or 1/8000 sec and their timing can be more closely controlled than a horizontal blind cloth shutter. The Konica Hexar in quiet mode is quieter than any Leica blind shutter I have heard. My personal view is that Leica should have dumped the cloth shutter in 2002, with the introduction of the M7. It had served well but is outdated. A metal blade shutter can even be made to work mechanically without batteries, as in the emergency mode on my Contax RTS2. 

 

Wilson

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lb1800,

Great news by e-mail just now. The estimate for what looks like a major repair of my M7 shutter system and complementary (DX headed and clean and lube and adjust) all for about 1/6th of what I was hinting above previously. I called them and gave my card details straight away. The list of things to repair and clean covers 2 pages but they say the work is 0.7hrs perhaps that's to fix the shutter mechanism the CLA and DX are complementary and would surely take some time to complete. Anyway I'm very happy with the response so far.

Lincoln

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The cloth shutter - and all the limitations such as the 1/1000 and 1/50 sync - is part of what makes a Leica a Leica. It seems a bit late in the day to buy a Leica and then start complaining about how limited it might be.

 

Ian, 

 

I was perfectly aware of the limitation when bought another M7 to add to my 11 other film/cloth shutter Leicas. I was not so much complaining as saying I could not understand the decision to continue with the cloth shutter in 2002, when better alternatives were freely available and already being used on the R cameras. It was a decision indicative of the extremely conservative attitudes prevalent at senior levels in Leica, throughout much of their history, which have not always served them well. It is not that they don't have the technical expertise, innovative skills or enthusiasm at lower levels in the company. The development of Auto Focus by Leica as early as 1975, for example, is a prime example of not capitalising on a technological break through. 

 

Wilson

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Showing how well I looked inside my new M7, when I got it a couple of weeks ago and have been shovelling films through it quite quickly since, I got ready to clean the DX contacts today with can of Servisol and fibreglass brush all ready, only to find it has already been converted to optical - doh! Instead I cleaned the optical windows with a cotton bud and Zeiss cleaning fluid. 

 

Just a thought is Leica missing a trick on not marketing little cleaning kits like Zeiss do? They do them in various combinations from just a few cleaning sachets and a microfibre cloth to one with a mini-blower, soft brush, sachets, cleaning fluid and 2 sizes of microfibre cloth, all in a branded nylon case. Apart from anything, it is good advertising. There is enough room inside the case to put in a small bottle of sensor cleaning fluid and a few sensor wands as well. I never travel without it, if I remember. 

 

Wilson

Edited by wlaidlaw
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I was perfectly aware of the limitation when bought another M7 to add to my 11 other film/cloth shutter Leicas. I was not so much complaining as saying I could not understand the decision to continue with the cloth shutter in 2002, when better alternatives were freely available and already being used on the R cameras. It was a decision indicative of the extremely conservative attitudes prevalent at senior levels in Leica, throughout much of their history, which have not always served them well. It is not that they don't have the technical expertise, innovative skills or enthusiasm at lower levels in the company. The development of Auto Focus by Leica as early as 1975, for example, is a prime example of not capitalising on a technological break through. 

 

 

Yes, I know that you are aware of the limitations of the cloth shutter. I just don't think now is the time to bemoan the fact that, 15 years ago, Leica decided to continue with a cloth shutter in the M7. Like it or not, the cloth shutter is very much part of the identity of the M film body and I think Leica were right to keep it for the M7. With a metal shutter, the M7 would have been a different camera altogether and I think Leica were absolutely right to persist with a cloth one. If anyone really desired AE, 1/2000 and a faster flash sync, the Hexar RF and the Zeiss Ikon have been available but neither really set the RF world on fire when they were introduced and I'm pretty certain the M7 has always been the more desirable camera.

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lb1800,

Sorry to be hijacking your M-A burnt shutter thread but as we are on the topic of shutters and Leica UK -> Wetzlar repairs for your M-A and my M7 currently I thought readers might be interested in what a broken M7 shutter system resulted in for the film negatives. I noticed in Ken Rockwell's M7 review that he was getting some blank negatives (some years ago) so when the shutter gets messed up or an M7 battery gets low we might see these blank (no light, no emulsion on negatives). I just realised Aperture doesn't have an Invert Image Colours facility so I made a crude N shape in curves which sort of worked for this purpose. The successful shots were probably when I switched to use the 1/60th or 1/125th manual settings. This was really a test film to see if newer batteries would solve the issue. Answer they didn't help the shutter blocking and wind-on issues. It was really messed-up, but hopefully soon fixed.

 

Motto is to use the camera more.

 

Or sell some of my cameras the M2 (same age as me) and this M7 when fixed, but keep my MP so the few films I do take each year keep the MP working.

 

I have a Sony A7 with adapter for M mount so have either 35mm or 50mm summicrons on that it's useful for times when I take only a few shots at the weekend, but the slow manual focus process (press a button to pixel peak and focus, press shutter release to re-frame then shoot) makes even the MP seem fast and the M7 even faster as only focusing on fast moving kids is required. But the Sony A7 (£800) and 35f2 Asph gives great results for landscape. A £5800 M10 just seems extreme even though it should be better for the wide angle lenses having the correct micro lenses on the sensor to support the wide angle light.

 

Rubber / metal shutter

Doesn't the rubber shutter also produce less vibration so the slower speeds can be used 1/15, 1/30th (depending on your steadiness of hand)? Can one use an M digital at these slow speeds or is the vibration more with metal shutter?

 

And soft release helps another stop slower?

 

I have suspicions that using a soft release on my M7 started the shutter blocking issues as even though it was OFF in the bag the soft release may be pressing the shutter in the tight fit bag. But that could all be coincidence and rubbish. I'm not using my soft release anymore but on pure mechanical cameras (M2 , M-A) it might be OK?

 

It feels a bit like adding £20 filters to the front of your expensive £2000 Leica lenses in that it often causes glare and doesn't help the image. Using a lens hood and cap (often lost expensive to replace) is a better solution.

A £20 soft release on a £2K - £6K camera is perhaps not such a good idea either.

My £130 Leica MP ER case rubbed the leatherette. Why be feeling the £130 case when you could be feeling the £2K body?

The MP/MA/M2/M3 film rewind attachment can often scuff the camera body.

My Leica MP strap (plastic connector to body lug) has rubbed the sides of my MP chrome. M7 has a plastic bit on the camera body to stop that. I now have some black electrical tape to prevent the rubbing on both the MP and M2 and a piece over the Red Dot on the M7.

 

I know we like to add accessories to our cameras to make them more unique but they don't always enhance our photos or our experience of the camera. That said I might try a wrist strap instead of a neck straps because when I have several cameras in a bag the neck straps get in the way but to have no strap at all would risk dropping the camera and potential disaster for the lens on the inevitable hard rock ground.

 

If you have just 1 camera on a day out a neck strap /shoulder strap is handy but using a lens cap and defocusing to 1m is advisable as the subject of this thread proves.

 

Lincoln

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Lincoln, 

 

Does not the off/on switch block any movement of the shutter button. If you switch my M7 off, the shutter button goes solid. With my missing index finger tip, I really need a soft release. I have to admit to putting digital M's into a bag with them still turned on but sleeping and then taken them out only to find the battery flat, due to the shutter release being held down. 

 

Wilson

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