sillbeers15 Posted July 5, 2017 Share #1 Posted July 5, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I received a text msg from Local Leica Store about an exstock M10 yesterday morning and by evening I've collected it. I'll start using the M10 and compare it against my all familiar M240 & SL 601. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 5, 2017 Posted July 5, 2017 Hi sillbeers15, Take a look here Goodbye M240 / welcome M10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Archiver Posted July 5, 2017 Share #2 Posted July 5, 2017 Lucky you! Let us know how they compare in terms of image quality. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted July 5, 2017 Share #3 Posted July 5, 2017 I know I shouldn't but I'm still interested in seeing some like-for-like M10 vs 240 comparisons. Same lens. Same settings for everything. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Warwick Posted July 5, 2017 Share #4 Posted July 5, 2017 I know I shouldn't but I'm still interested in seeing some like-for-like M10 vs 240 comparisons. Same lens. Same settings for everything. I'd also be very interested in seeing that. M10 has a smaller body, quieter shutter (i.e. Hardware) and better high ISO and out of camera colour, I get all that .... But at base ISO, on a true like for like basis? I'm not sure I've heard if there's any advantage .... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted July 5, 2017 Share #5 Posted July 5, 2017 At base ISO, an iphone would probably be just as good. It's when the anti is up'ed that differences count. If you don't shoot extremes, you probably don't need Leica gear. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillbeers15 Posted July 6, 2017 Author Share #6 Posted July 6, 2017 (edited) My first thoughts were also to set a tripod and have a same lens to take 3 shots respectively from M 240, M10 & SL for comparison trial. However I do question the value in doing that. As in all the M10 reviews I've read and videos I watched, all they tell is the camera physical differences and handling experiences. Well I did not paid a M10 for that, perhaps to some extent I did paid for expended application with CMOS sensor for M240 when I replaced my M9. But for M10, I'm getting lesser of a camera than M240 in application. So what I really look forward to would be the image files it produces. Some say that the images produced are closer to M9. I've yet to see and feel for myself (now these comparisons are subjective and intangible), I hope not to be disappointed as I do like the images produced out of M240 & SL, which some claims that SL files are flat while M10 files 'pop'. Edited July 6, 2017 by sillbeers15 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 6, 2017 Share #7 Posted July 6, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) **sigh** What a camera these days "looks like" is so dependent on post processing skills and knowledge, which "defaults" are chosen, and by who (Leica? Or Adobe? Or the user?), which calibration profile is used, and a host of other variables, that unless those variables are carefully controlled for, there is almost no such thing as "what a camera can do." Take the following pair - the same M10 picture (shot at exp. comp. of minus 0.7 to protect the highlights) - first with minimal post-processing (ACR developing defaults all set to zero), and the second processed for maximum tonal range (DR). But not using HDR tricks, simply opening up the shadows a ton with the "Shadows" slider. Does the M10 "pop" like an M9, if the contrast is high? Yep. Does the M10 "pop" like the M9 if the photographer chooses to pull out all the dynamic-range stops? No! In other words - which is the M10 "look?" Well, both. It can be EITHER flat, or "pop," depending on what the photographer wants, and does. Is either one with "Leica" or "Adobe" white balance? No (I have my own daylight preset, which IMHO is better than either "As Shot" (Leica) or "Auto" (Adobe), both of which can be screwy as far as I'm concerned.) What is the "base ISO?" Leica says the M10 is 135-ish. DxOMark clocks the M240 at about the same. Neither camera can actually be set for that ISO, so how can we compare? There are some things to look for in the M10, but they won't necessarily be obvious "straight from the camera." ISO performance (noise and banding) from 3200 to 12500; dynamic range (especially pulled from the shadows); the "M10 Embedded" color profiling/calbration, which is the best "corporate-made" profile I've seen, and is how Leica thinks the M10 should look (but feel free to modify it, or use "Adobe" instead, if you like.); and the overall "flexibility" of the M10 files (ability to make it look however you want, by playing with the sliders). But unless one is willing to "dig around" in the files and see what's there, "straight from the camera" is going to be misleading, one way or another. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Some further reading: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268393-m10-color-rendition-compared-to-m9-m240-sl-cameras/ https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268833-iso-100-on-m10/ 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Some further reading: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268393-m10-color-rendition-compared-to-m9-m240-sl-cameras/ https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268833-iso-100-on-m10/ ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/274096-goodbye-m240-welcome-m10/?do=findComment&comment=3309539'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 6, 2017 Share #8 Posted July 6, 2017 However.Andy, there is probably a difference in the transmission of the Bayer filter which cannot be completely compensated for in Photoshop Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 6, 2017 Share #9 Posted July 6, 2017 (edited) That is very likely true, but without technical specifications to study, how we tell what is from the filter spectral transmission, and what is from the profile (and some profile is used - no such processing choice as "No Profile")? As came up in our previous "color" discussion, the M10 produces less-red oranges than the M9. Is that because the M10 Bayer green filters "leak" more red light? Or because Leica tweaked their embedded profile "sliders" to make oranges yellower? "Pop" is basically higher contrast and/or saturation settings. I'd say one noticeable difference between the M10 and the M240 files is the default contrast mapping Leica applies. The M10 has a stronger contrast map (as in my first version of the picture) while the M240 uses a lower-contrast mapping (default from the camera looks a bit more like my second version of the M10 image). Leica "hides" the M10 dynamic range behind a strong contrast curve - quite possibly because there were so many "user complaints" that the M240 didn't have the "pop" of the M9. But it is all just math applied to the underlying data, and if you (the user) change the math, you can get either "look" out of the same image. To some extent it becomes "entrail gazing." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haruspex Edited July 6, 2017 by adan 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 6, 2017 Share #10 Posted July 6, 2017 I agree that the differences are pretty marginal in the end, but specification and the purity of the filter must make a difference. To me it is an explanation of the difficulty ( at least for me) to get Sony colours to my liking. Strangely enough, I find the X1 and X2 quite easy, despite the Sony sensor. Leica must specify a different filter and use a different processing pipeline. As for the contrast curve, the shoulders of the curve play a decisive role. That is where contrast control in the curves panel comes in, instead of simply slithering the slider around. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 7, 2017 Share #11 Posted July 7, 2017 At base ISO, an iphone would probably be just as good. It's when the anti is up'ed that differences count. If you don't shoot extremes, you probably don't need Leica gear. If you do shoot extremes, you probably don't want Leica gear. The M10 and M240 are brilliant digital incarnations of a 64 year-old platform. I am an almost 50-year devotee of Leica M, and I prefer it over any other system. But the M10's high-ISO performance, battery life, versatility, weathersealing and resistance to impact damage are not up to that of other non-Leica pro-level camera systems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted July 7, 2017 Share #12 Posted July 7, 2017 Bocaburger, I am sure you are right in your assertions, but I don't think anyone, certainly not me, is claiming Leica is better than other Pro level cameras. They ALL have their intrinsic weaknesses and foibles. A clever/good photographer knows this and chooses his tools according to his given task. Most other artisans do the same, I suspect. My Leicas have served, and survived, the extremes of the Sahara Desert, Antarctica, the Australian desert environment (as extreme as any I know). I could go on. These days I shoot largely in low light environments for my own leisure, but I spent many years shooting stage and theatre productions requiring up to 800 or even 1000 exposures over 2 - 2.5 hours. For these assignments, M8 and M9 batteries only ever required one battery change. I would be totally comfortable shooting the M10 with it's battery on such an assignment. Talk of reduced battery battery capacity is true, but it is not a problem, for me. More important is it's improved High Iso, improved VF etc. The M10 is one choice we have. For me it beats anything I have used before. I do use a range of non Leica cameras as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 8, 2017 Share #13 Posted July 8, 2017 Absolutely agree. I too have used a multitude of brands and formats, but always had a preference for the Leica. There was a time Leica maintained an advantage as an interchangeable-lens system of the most compact dimensions. Nowadays mirrorless systems have changed the game and even the "slimmed" M10 seems like a brick by comparison. What keeps me in the M camp is the optomechanical rangefinder, as I find even the best EVF's somewhat less direct and engaging. I also appreciate the fact that the user interface has changed little in 50 years, and I have not had to go through a steep learning curve every time I upgraded. If I wanted to I could load my M4 and go out shooting as if I'd just used it yesterday. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted July 8, 2017 Share #14 Posted July 8, 2017 I really think Leica should make the body lighter and use magnesium or carbon fiber etc..lower price a bit..and sell more of em..and most importantly..more lenses too..with more bodies on the market.. ..upgrade the internals ala'.. panny..but keep makin the metal bricks for people that want to pay.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denys Posted July 8, 2017 Share #15 Posted July 8, 2017 At base ISO, an iphone would probably be just as good. It's when the anti is up'ed that differences count. If you don't shoot extremes, you probably don't need Leica gear. Agree 100%! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillbeers15 Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share #16 Posted July 11, 2017 SOLD my M240 + extras to a nice gentleman earlier today. M240 Set by sillbeers15 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gvaliquette Posted July 13, 2017 Share #17 Posted July 13, 2017 .... What keeps me in the M camp is the optomechanical rangefinder, as I find even the best EVF's somewhat less direct and engaging.... Yes, Albert Einstein was the first to state this truth: Only photons move at the speed of light! Guy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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