HELM Posted June 12, 2017 Share #1 Posted June 12, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just picked up M10 Saturday and it's my first Leica and using 35 Summicron to start wirth. When shooting after turning on camera I keep finding the first shot to be off (badly underexposed) on exposure and the following pictures are much better. But the overall exposure starting with the 2nd shot seems to be about -1 off looking at the histograms. I can bring the image up using LR but I've just sacrificed some dynamic range to get there. If i shoot at + 0.3 or +0.7 it seems fine. No highlights blown out. I've tried changing metering modes but the results are ~ same. Using Auto ISO and Auto Speed to try and rule out rookie user errors Is the overall underexposure normal with Leica? I am new to Leica and this forum but 25+ years of Canon (5DS and telephotos) so trying to make sure I have the workflow correct. Not new to Rangefinder as I have my Dad's Zeiss Contax IIIa :-) thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 12, 2017 Posted June 12, 2017 Hi HELM, Take a look here M10 Exposure off on 1st picture. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
fatihayoglu Posted June 12, 2017 Share #2 Posted June 12, 2017 Metering modes works only for LV shooting, otherwise if you use only RF mode, then Leica works with centre weighted exposure. I am new to RF as well and sometimes I find it difficult to nail the exposure as I was Nikon DSLR with matrix metering before and obviously it was working more predictable for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted June 12, 2017 Share #3 Posted June 12, 2017 With time you'll learn to evaluate the scene and make guess at what, if any, exposure compensation is required. It all adds to the feeling of involvement with the picture taking experience. Perfectly normal behaviour on your camera's part. I have the M240. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HELM Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share #4 Posted June 12, 2017 Very helpful, thanks. Went back and re-read the manual and it is clear so a RTFM issue for the *new* to Leica owner. Is there a diagram anywhere of the coverage of the M10 Center weighted exposure and relative weighting within the frame? I use Center on my Canon 5DS and the results are not similar (yet) so it implies (to my early use) the coverage and weightings are different again - thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatihayoglu Posted June 12, 2017 Share #5 Posted June 12, 2017 http://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M9-digital-rangefinder-camera-page-17-light-metering-and%20quality-of-light.html Overgaard talks about it a bit but it is not an exact size as DSLRs. Also the area changes by the focal length. (Based on the pictures) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted June 12, 2017 Share #6 Posted June 12, 2017 I must say that I experienced the same effect and I am new to Leica too coming from 5D MkII, III and IV. The first thing I learned is that the metering system measures about ⅔ of the hight of the active frame that you see in the viewer of your Camera (not LV). From the DSLR we learned that we had to exposure to the right (ETTR) as on the right of the histogram we have most information that is relevant for the picture. As a matter of fact the M10 tends now to expose a little bit to the middle. I posted in the LUF as well that my M10 was "underexposing". But you get used to that fact very quickly and you learn quickly how to correct this. When you see an importnat portion of sky in your frame then you have to overexpose: You have to see the red dot in the finder plus at the same time the right arrow (pointing to the left). Maybe you have to add another ½ LV. On the other hand I found that the sensor works so marvellously well that it is no problem to pull up the dark areas in Lightroom in order to get a perfectly exposed image in post. Often though I see that perfectly exposed picture ooc already after I have learned how to manage the M10. It is definitely more difficult or it takes more thinking before releasing the shutter button with the M10. A last thing here: Since I have the M10 I see that I rarely crop my images whereas with the Canon I cropped maybe 60% of my shots. This is certainly due to the fact that I am much more aware of everything I do when having the M10 in my hands. However as a result you get pictures that are so brilliant compared to the 5D that I am fully willing to learn more and practice more. I love my M10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 12, 2017 Share #7 Posted June 12, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) In the FAQ you can find the metering diagram of M cameras. This one is the M9, but others are very similar. It should be of help for the learning curve of new users. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216580-leica-m8-m82-m9-m9p-mm-mtyp240-faqs-questions-with-answers/?p=2464134 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/273406-m10-exposure-off-on-1st-picture/?do=findComment&comment=3294188'>More sharing options...
adan Posted June 13, 2017 Share #8 Posted June 13, 2017 A couple of points about Leica M metering - which really has not changed significantly since the M6 was introduced in 1984 (and briefly, before that in the M5 and CL - 1971-76). And ignoring for the moment metering off the digital sensor (Live view or EVF or as "mirrorless" cameras do). 1. It is sometimes called "heavily center-weighted" - but in reality it is more of a semi-spot meter. It ignores about 75% of the image area, as jaap's diagram above shows. And really gets half of its measurement from an even smaller area than that - roughly the orange-yellow-white parts of that diagram. A semi-spot meter is NOT the ideal way to meter in fast-moving events (i.e news or street photography), and especially using auto-exposure. It is a lousy "point-&-shoot" meter. But it is what Leica can fit into the small M body. And it works OK when one meters each picture carefully and individually - or, as mentioned far down below, one knows how to work around it. SLRs (especially today) not only read the entire image area when desired, but also do so with artificial intelligence - breaking the picture down into segments and figuring out "Oh, this bright area is at the top of the picture, so it must be sky, and we'll discount it so we don't underexpose the ground." The M's essentially "1984" (or even "1964") metering is dumb by comparison. The only SLRs that consistently metered about like the M does (a quite limited central area) were the Nikon F3's and Canon F-1's - just due to the mechanics of squeezing the metering into the mirror system or viewing screen. https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/nikonf3ver2/screens/viewinfosml.jpg http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/canonf1/operations/viewfinderinfo.jpg 2. The M meter always reads the same central part of the PICTURE - but does not always read the same part of the FINDER. Because the viewfinder is fixed at a "28mm" view of the world, which is then cropped by framelines to whatever area a specific lens is actually photographing. Thus I introduce the diagram missing so far in this discussion - which shows how the FINDER metering area changes from lens to lens. http://mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/Leica/Leica-M3/Leica-MP/images/Mag_0587285x.gif (For the M10, consider just the central section, covering 0.72x viewfinders.) When pointing the Ms' internal meter, you have to think about which lens/framelines you are using, and then visualize the apparently smaller metering areas for longer lenses, and the wider metering areas for wider lenses, as shown in the finder (again - the metering area as a part of the PICTURE stays the same). __________ Now, personally, I often use "A" myself when things are moving fast, and count on the fact that digital allows for a LOT of shadow recovery. Especially M10 files. And/or the rather fast and easy (by comparison to my old M9) thumb-wheel exposure compensation. Even so, the extra-wide metering one gets with an extra-wide lens (21mm - separate viewfinder) gives me wonky underexposures sometimes (it sees a lot of sky). Fortunately, there is tons of shadow detail that is not immediately visible in the default .dng files, and I have no problem with cranking in exposure or boosting the shadows as required in post-processing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HELM Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share #9 Posted June 14, 2017 Incredibly helpful replies, thanks for the exposure coverage images, exactly what I was searching for. Composition followed by "targeting" a middle grey area in the region (not always in the composition) for exposure, then working on final focusing is working great. It feels a bit like waving the camera around but I really like the results from this flow now. I love the fact that exposure is then locked for me as I move around for final composition by holding shutter 1/2 way down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 14, 2017 Share #10 Posted June 14, 2017 If you are shooting in constant light, it is even more practical to set the camera to manual and measure once. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted June 14, 2017 Share #11 Posted June 14, 2017 One other point, on the question of only the first picture being underexposed. Depressing the shutter button part way "locks" the exposure in A mode. Useful for "meter and recompose" - but if you happen to put a little pressure on the shutter button as you raise the camera to your eye, you may be locking in an exposure taken off whatever the camera just happens to be pointing at as you raise it - bright concrete below your feet, or bright sky overhead. Or, of course, in some cases, an unintended dark object as well. So if you have the habit of touching the shutter button to "wake" the camera as you raise it to your eye, or just to be ready to shoot as fast as possible - remember to release the button once it's at your eye and then push it again to re-meter your actual scene. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HELM Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share #12 Posted June 14, 2017 Since trying the new "meter and recompose" (I like that term) I haven't had a bad first image. Likely it was as you said, I touched the shutter on the way up. Interesting is that with my Canon's I used a AF button to nail spot focus (I shoot lots of sailing) and handed off exposure to the camera. The AE lock button right next to it was barely used as focus was critical at 400MM wide open shooting from a moving boat (to take a picture of a moving boat). Canon flow: Aperture, Focus, camera handles Exposure. With the M10 I'm more involved with Exposure since my targets are not as rapidly moving as sailboats so focus/composition is more leisurely. I am enjoying the different flow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblutter Posted June 15, 2017 Share #13 Posted June 15, 2017 Play with it - a lot - like a smart 14 yr old with a new very expensive precision instrument would Also, meter for near highlights. Low end can be brought up in LR or PS - but blown out highlights are not recoverable Happy shooting! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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