London Lad Posted June 23, 2007 Share #1 Posted June 23, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) My first and only range finder camera until recently was a Russian FED4 some 30 years ago. I kept the FED for about 18 months or so and then moved to a SLR. In November last year I purchased a second hand Leica M6 and two CV lens. I enjoyed these and in Feb this year I decided to treat myself to a M8 and 3 new Leica lens. My first black M8 back focused badly and after trying various techniques and tests my dealer and I decided it was a faulty camera and he exchanged it for a new silver one which focused perfectly but had one segment of the led viewfinder display missing. He spoke to Leica France and they promised to send a replacement. Yesterday he telephoned to say it had arrived, and today I trotted off the shop to get it. On checking the new camera it was immediately apparent that it back focused as badly as my first one! The dealer offered me another one from his stock to try and it seemed to focus OK but I noticed that it had a red dot in the warranty card and was therefore a refurb which I was not to keen on. The dealer gave me his last M8 to try, the range finder did not line up at infinity!! So I took the refurb home and checked it out carefully on the tripod and guess what, it back focuses slightly close up and the range finder is out at infinity!! So out of five M8s four have focus problems and one has a display problem. Next week I will be borrowing the correctly focusing (duff led) camera again until yet another replacement arrives. I am not really annoyed at all of this any more, its just become funny and I have made good friends with the dealer but since February I have always felt that I have someone else's M8 on loan and would really like to have a fully working one to call my own! If I could wind back the clock and not have started with the M8 at all ????? I think I probably would. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 23, 2007 Posted June 23, 2007 Hi London Lad, Take a look here Do any of these M8s work properly?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest Lotw Posted June 23, 2007 Share #2 Posted June 23, 2007 this is beyond statistics. try another dealer? you can be good friends with him, but this does not mean that leica is good friends with him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 23, 2007 Share #3 Posted June 23, 2007 I'm increasingly seeing this as a fundamental design flaw with the Leica M system. Focussing accuracy and lens interchangeability requires every body and every lens ever made to be precisely calibrated to indepenent references; there's no point adjusting a body and lens to work together if they are not also adjusted to that independent reference. It's a bit like going into a garage to check your tyres. The reading is off, are the tyres incorrectly inflated or is the gauge mis-reading? The reading is fine so the tyres must be fine. Or are they? The tyre could be over-inflated and the gauge could be under-reading. I've long said there's a need for a precisely calibrated adapter which can be used to check bodies independently of any lenses. It's only if you know your camera body is correct that you can correctly diagnose what is going on with your lenses. What's worrying is that this calibration appears to have changed in the move from film to digital; they had to re-do the geometry of the rangefinder in the M8 because the lens (and focal plane) sit further forwards than in a film camera. I've yet to be convinced it's 100% correct. I'm interested in buying one of Stephen Gandy's rangefinder coupled mounts for the basis of such an adapter. I put it to him that an adapter would be a good idea, he didn't appear to think so (so what do I know?) but the fact remains that time and time again, people are having trouble with focussing accuracy on the M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Lad Posted June 23, 2007 Author Share #4 Posted June 23, 2007 I suspect you are right Mark. However the silver M8 with the duff led did focus correctly with 4 different lenses (28, 40, 50, 90) so it seems that it can be done. If it wasn't for this one camera I would by now be doubting that a M8 was capable of focus with all of a range of lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted June 23, 2007 Share #5 Posted June 23, 2007 I suspect you are right Mark. However the silver M8 with the duff led did focus correctly with 4 different lenses (28, 40, 50, 90) so it seems that it can be done. If it wasn't for this one camera I would by now be doubting that a M8 was capable of focus with all of a range of lenses. Yes, all of use with correctly focussing M8s and multiple lenses are simply hallucinating Seriously, I don't doubt for a single moment you've had back luck, or even that there may be a general rangefinder backfocus issue with the M8 as shipped. But there are plenty of people with working M8, and they are certainly capable of focusing with a wide range of lenses. But here's something interesting. My M8 had a front-focus issue with a lens I bought. Pristine 75 Lux, but out of whack wide open. Turns out the lens cannot focus at infinity, and needs repair! One of the problems with being compatible with decades worth of lenses is that a lot of the lenses aren't exactly in tip-top shape anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted June 23, 2007 Share #6 Posted June 23, 2007 Just about every used lens I have bought (and one new one) was quite a bit out focus wise. My new M8 however was perfectly calibrated. A trip to DAG and all my lenses are dead on. I believe Don at DAG calibrates to a standard. The RF viewfinder is a real Rube Goldberg contraption so no surprise when components of the system occasionally need adjustment like any complex mechanical device. Getting new lenses and bodies that are out of adjustment is disappointing however. That seems to happen more then it should. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Lad Posted June 23, 2007 Author Share #7 Posted June 23, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) this is beyond statistics.try another dealer? you can be good friends with him, but this does not mean that leica is good friends with him. I am happy with my dealer and I don't think Leica are victimising him, he is a long established and well respected guy. Yes, all of use with correctly focussing M8s and multiple lenses are simply hallucinating Seriously, I don't doubt for a single moment you've had back luck, or even that there may be a general rangefinder backfocus issue with the M8 as shipped. But there are plenty of people with working M8, and they are certainly capable of focusing with a wide range of lenses. But here's something interesting. My M8 had a front-focus issue with a lens I bought. Pristine 75 Lux, but out of whack wide open. Turns out the lens cannot focus at infinity, and needs repair! One of the problems with being compatible with decades worth of lenses is that a lot of the lenses aren't exactly in tip-top shape any more. I am really glad you guys are out there with your A1 focusing M8s, it gives me hope I could understand it if I was using old lenses but mine are all brand new. I am not looking for answers here just rambling really, I know this will get sorted eventually, just hope its soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoran Milich Posted June 23, 2007 Share #8 Posted June 23, 2007 Graham, I also had hit an miss wide open with my 28 'cron and 50 lux. But I got myself a diopter and things got much better. I'm thinking of just putting on a 1.25 magnifier on it all the time. -z Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Lad Posted June 23, 2007 Author Share #9 Posted June 23, 2007 Graham, I also had hit an miss wide open with my 28 'cron and 50 lux. But I got myself a diopter and things got much better. I'm thinking of just putting on a 1.25 magnifier on it all the time. -z Thanks for the suggestion but I went through the 1.25 mag stage with camera No1. I found the magnifier certainly made it easier to line up the images in the viewfinder but the result was still out of focus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodda Posted June 23, 2007 Share #10 Posted June 23, 2007 I use the HK 1.25 and it is great. Saying that I have sent the camera and all 4 lenses back to solms for checking as I need them coded anyway and the M8 has an issue in another area otherwise great Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hart Posted June 23, 2007 Share #11 Posted June 23, 2007 Graham: perhaps you should use that M6 more...;-) My experience of the M8 is that there is something in this backfocussing issue, but it's not consistent across all lenses. My 28/2,8 ASPH, 50 Summicron-M and APO Summicron 75 ASPH are bang on the mark every time, even close up and wide open. The Noctilux back focusses, but I've learnt to compensate for it and it's worth the effort of learning. It's such a whacky lens that I forgive its wayward behaviour. The 50 Summilux pre-asph I used to have also back focussed. I do wonder whether digital imaging is giving users the ability to engage in endless tests that give rise to worries that never arose with film? I shot a pile of images on a weekend away in Helsinki recently, and binned none of them because of back focussing. Those I dumped, I dumped because they were no good photographically. That was my fault, not the M8's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billh Posted June 23, 2007 Share #12 Posted June 23, 2007 I'm increasingly seeing this as a fundamental design flaw with the Leica M system. Focussing accuracy and lens interchangeability requires every body and every lens ever made to be precisely calibrated to indepenent references; there's no point adjusting a body and lens to work together if they are not also adjusted to that independent reference........ I've long said there's a need for a precisely calibrated adapter which can be used to check bodies independently of any lenses. It's only if you know your camera body is correct that you can correctly diagnose what is going on with your lenses. What's worrying is that this calibration appears to have changed in the move from film to digital; they had to re-do the geometry of the rangefinder in the M8 because the lens (and focal plane) sit further forwards than in a film camera. I've yet to be convinced it's 100% correct. I'm interested in buying one of Stephen Gandy's rangefinder coupled mounts for the basis of such an adapter. I put it to him that an adapter would be a good idea, he didn't appear to think so (so what do I know?) but the fact remains that time and time again, people are having trouble with focussing accuracy on the M8. Hi Mark, I didn’t realize they redesigned the rangefinder. Can you tell it this is a design problem, or a quality control issue? Maybe it just seems this way, but I get the impression the majority of these camera are having focusing problems. Both of mine back focused, but I am hoping the next one will work correctly (I sent the 50ASPH in to have it checked, and ordered a 28 f2.0, which I certainly hope they will check before it is delivered). It is really frustrating not to have a camera what functions correctly in the most basic areas. Do you have any thoughts about how we can determine what the problem is, and how to rectify it? Most people have a back focus problem - correct? Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 24, 2007 Share #13 Posted June 24, 2007 I think I must be the luckiest guy around... Two bodies and twelve lenses, some dating back over forty years, some brand new, and not one misfocussing in the bunch.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted June 24, 2007 Share #14 Posted June 24, 2007 I went through this whole backfocus issue with the RD1. The M8 is a walk in the park by contrast. The upshot of rigorously testing dozens of lenses against my camera body, lead to a recalibration of my camera body and rangefinder system by DAG. And yes, Don does us a calibrated jig to set the lens mount to image plane distance. This is a fundamental distance that should be, and can be set to tolorances of +- .0002". Without doing this, the rest is a waste of time. After this was done my lenses were fairly OK with the exception of a 21mm Kobalux that was out by about 5" at 1 meter. The interesting thing is that although only a few of my lenses were spot on, nevertheless, in real world shooting my results were more than satisfaction even with the Kobalux. So what gives? Why does a so-so calibrated lens work fine in practice. The reason, I discovered had to do with a combination of depth of field forgiveness coupled with the fact that shutter speed, subject movement and camera bobbing were far more important factors than backfocus issues. I could rarely blame any unsatisfactory sharpness to back focus issues. At close portrait distances,head bobbing and body swaying causes, by far, the most problem with the focus point being different than one intended. The second most likely cause of inprecise focal point was subject sway. With a fast lens, even a half inch of combined photographer-subject movement can shift the best focus from the eye to the tip of the nose. Anyway when I got my M8 I just did a quick test with my "reference" lens to confirm that the body was OK. Then I test my other lenses with an inclined tape measure. Not surprising the lenses tested as I knew they would. The Kobalux was still the worst but at 21mm huge depth of field, who cares?. Meanwhile, I have taken thousands of pictures and everything is fine from a practical point of view. That being said, I will do some rigorous testing of my lenses when I have dealt with the many more pressing issues of cyan vignetting,etc. The fact is, the results from the camera are incredible. Resolving the small issues (cyan vignetting being the big one) is a continuing project. Someone described the rangefinder system of focusing as being a Rube Goldburg solution. I would second that motion. The whole string of cams, prisms, levers, and threaded helicols requires so much machining precision, skilled assemby and collamation, its a wonder that it works as well as it does. Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbaron Posted June 24, 2007 Share #15 Posted June 24, 2007 I think I must be the luckiest guy around... Two bodies and twelve lenses, some dating back over forty years, some brand new, and not one misfocussing in the bunch.... I think you must be. I'm envious. I'm on M8 body #3...the first one last 30 days and then the shutter locked up. The second lasted 30 minutes and then the Play button ceased to function. Leica NJ replaced them promptly (with a firm nudge from my dealer, Rich Pinto of Photo Village in NY). Now it appears some but not all of my longer (50 mm to 90mm) lenses - all of which seemed to do just fine on my M6s and then M7s - are backfocusing on the M8. I am inclined to think it is because of the closer tolerances others have described, and I also think I notice it more because I can blow these images up to 'giant size' with just a few keystrokes or mouse clicks on the computer whereas I rarely blew film images up that large. So I am slowly trying to figure out 'what next'. I am not inclined to send my M8 and all my lenses in for adjustment. If that is done, what about the next body I get? --Bob in Oklahoma Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 24, 2007 Share #16 Posted June 24, 2007 I agree with Rex that the sensor is critically aligned. I found shims under mine of 0.01mm (0.0004") which is much thinner than a piece of paper and only about 150 wavelengths of light thick. I also agree that the ability to chimp at very high magnification is probably working against us. Bill, the original newsletter announcing the M8 had an interview with Otto Domes. This is what he said: "... for instance, we had to bring the bayonet mount forwards by 2mm from the camera body, to keep the camera itself as thin as possible. This seemingly small change meant that the exposure meter drive [i think this is a translation error and should read "rangefinder drive"] had to be completely redeveloped...." The other question is: With digital, where in the layers of sensor pixels and microlenses is the effective focal plane anyway? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted June 24, 2007 Share #17 Posted June 24, 2007 Graham, a diopter is an eye-correction lens, not the loupe. Do you have perfect vision? The rangefinder is clearly a potentially problematic piece of mechanics, but when it works, it works superbly. Mine was also cronically out, but when I finally taught myself (with lots of help from member here) to adjust it, it became perfect, and I almost always nail the focus much better than the autofocus mechanism in my ex-Canon 5D could. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted June 24, 2007 Share #18 Posted June 24, 2007 After reading all these posts I count myself lucky. My M8 has worked flawlessly and focuses perfectly. Could this problem be related to a particular production run? I still find this problem to be puzzling. You very seldom hear of anyone having a problem like this with a film M body. My M4 has been everywhere, knocked about, even dropped on concrete and nothing has gone out of whack. I guess they don't make them like they used to... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted June 24, 2007 Share #19 Posted June 24, 2007 The dealer offered me another one from his stock to try and it seemed to focus OK but I noticed that it had a red dot in the warranty card and was therefore a refurb which I was not to keen on. The dealer gave me his last M8 to try, the range finder did not line up at infinity!! I know from the date of purchase (30 Jan), the early serial number 3100302 and the fact that Leica confirmed that my M8 with that serial number had the later CCD, that mine must be a refurb. I therefore decided to get my warranty booklet out to see if it had a red dot. To my surprise, I find the serial number on the warranty book does not match the camera. Anyone got M8 serial number 3102074? If so I have your warranty book - have you got mine? I have emailed CK Fotolab in Grenada asking for an explanation. This could cause a problem if I needed warranty work on the body. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGeoJO Posted June 24, 2007 Share #20 Posted June 24, 2007 After reading all these posts I count myself lucky. My M8 has worked flawlessly and focuses perfectly. I feel very, very lucky as well. Mine is chrome, BTW. Even back then before the hardware repair in Solms, I didn't see any green blobs and only minor streaking of highlights. My only "complaints" right now are limited to (although rather infrequently) off white balance on the LCD but I am shooting DNG, so really no big deal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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