Determining New Sensor - M9

[BlackPaint]

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Here's a success story for you:
2010 M9 (early first batch)
Replaced 7 years ago with ID 11 and never received the update to 15 or 16.  
My M9 is still running strong with no signs of corrosion, and I have the guaranteed Kodak version of the CCD with its original magical color rendering. 
 

Edited August 13, 2022 by BlackPaint

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[ianman]

On 8/13/2022 at 8:40 PM, BlackPaint said:

Here's a success story for you:
2010 M9 (early first batch)
Replaced 7 years ago with ID 11 and never received the update to 15 or 16.  
My M9 is still running strong with no signs of corrosion, and I have the guaranteed Kodak version of the CCD with its original magical color rendering. 
 

The new sensor is the same, it’s only the glass covering that was changed. Although there is nothing magical about it, I’ve always liked the rendering of the M9 and was fearful it would lost. But in fact when I got mine back with its new sensor I thought the output looked even better. But that is probably just wishful thinking as I can see no difference in rendering between the old and new sensors. The only big difference is peace of mind.

[maitoparta]

On 5/16/2021 at 2:18 PM, maitoparta said:

Have these values and the Leica M9 going strong.

CCD ID: 11

CCD Board: 2

Control BRD: 2

M16CID: 0

Update: Found corrosion from my M9 sensor ID 11 Leica. A picture is attached to show it.

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[Ray Vonn]

28 minutes ago, maitoparta said:

Update: Found corrosion from my M9 sensor ID 11 Leica. A picture is attached to show it.

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And that was after using the sensor blower?  I only ask as the spots look like dust.

[maitoparta]

8 minutes ago, Ray Vonn said:

And that was after using the sensor blower?  I only ask as the spots look like dust.

There are many dust spots, yes. but obvious corrosion is visible on both sides of the sensor. The picture I attached was a bad not cropped and resized picture. Now I paste cropped and not resized picture of the left side of the pic.

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Edited February 25, 2023 by maitoparta

[dpitt]

On 2/25/2023 at 11:23 PM, maitoparta said:

There are many dust spots, yes. but obvious corrosion is visible on both sides of the sensor. The picture I attached was a bad not cropped and resized picture. Now I paste cropped and not resized picture of the left side of the pic.

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Still looks minor to me. Working with large apertures you could still enjoy this one for a few years.

[maitoparta]

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On 2/27/2023 at 8:42 AM, dpitt said:

Still looks minor to me. Working with large apertures you could still enjoy this one for a few years.

Well, I don't see effects at all of that corrosion in real world photography. I manipulated the files to make that corrosion visible on corrosion test image posted here. Guess over time the corrosion will become an issue in real world photography, though.

[dpitt]

11 hours ago, maitoparta said:

Well, I don't see effects at all of that corrosion in real world photography. I manipulated the files to make that corrosion visible on corrosion test image posted here. Guess over time the corrosion will become an issue in real world photography, though.

For the moment it will be fine when you open your lenses larger than let's say F5.6 and depending on the subjects you can get away with smaller openings. Bcause the first cases were found about 3-4 years after launch of the M9, I think you have at least that long if you keep it in a dry place. I was lucky enough to notice the corrosion in time and got a replacement with sensor ID 15 for mine. The corrosion on mine was much worse when I discovered it in 2015. It was barely usable at large apertures, anything above F4 required lots of healing work in LR, so I waited for reports that they have a definitive solution and had it replaced for free. Kudos to Leica for doing this on a camera that was by then about 3 years out of warranty.

It would be interesting to know what kind of FL lenses trigger the defects more than others. Is it just the aperture or also the FL that matters? If you have time to do some tests with 28, 35, 50 and 90 mm lenses (if you have those) and different apertures. This would be useful for a friend who has a sensor that is little bit worse than yours at the moment. She is not inclined to pay for a repair, but at least I would like to advise her on how to use it with minimal PP for as long as it lasts. In case you wonder, she is not technical at all so I can not ask her to do it and I am living too far from her to do the tests myself.

Edited April 1, 2023 by dpitt

[dpitt]

Most of the readers will know about this method to clearly identify corrosion on a sensor, but here it is:

M9 sensor test for corrosion:
1. Set ISO on lowest value (ISO 160)
2. Output must be JPEG L or DNG
3. The lens aperture must be closed fully (highest number 16 or 22)
4. Set camera on A position for exposure
5. Take a white paper minimal A4 size
6. Set focus on infinity (does not matter much)
6. Hold the M9 over the paper so that the white paper fills the frame and turn slowly in circles above the paper, then shoot.

The shot will have motion blur but that is the point. Because any dust or corrosion is moving with the sensor, it will be crystal sharp while any dust  on the paper will show blurred (or will not show at all)

Now pixel peep at 100% on your screen:
Any black spots are harmless dust or dirt particles, spots or stripes with lighter halos around them are corrosion defects and can not be cleaned away

[maitoparta]

On 4/1/2023 at 9:47 AM, dpitt said:

For the moment it will be fine when you open your lenses larger than let's say F5.6 and depending on the subjects you can get away with smaller openings. Bcause the first cases were found about 3-4 years after launch of the M9, I think you have at least that long if you keep it in a dry place. I was lucky enough to notice the corrosion in time and got a replacement with sensor ID 15 for mine. The corrosion on mine was much worse when I discovered it in 2015. It was barely usable at large apertures, anything above F4 required lots of healing work in LR, so I waited for reports that they have a definitive solution and had it replaced for free. Kudos to Leica for doing this on a camera that was by then about 3 years out of warranty.

It would be interesting to know what kind of FL lenses trigger the defects more than others. Is it just the aperture or also the FL that matters? If you have time to do some tests with 28, 35, 50 and 90 mm lenses (if you have those) and different apertures. This would be useful for a friend who has a sensor that is little bit worse than yours at the moment. She is not inclined to pay for a repair, but at least I would like to advise her on how to use it with minimal PP for as long as it lasts. In case you wonder, she is not technical at all so I can not ask her to do it and I am living too far from her to do the tests myself.

Sorry for not being able to study how the corroded sensor affects pictures. Was just too much to bear to study the effects.

But everything ended well, thanks to Leica. I traded my M9 for M10-R, and it was a very kind offer they made, especially when they were not obligated to do anything. No other camera maker would had done the same, but Leica did. A great company.

So I am back on photography, with stunning M10-R.

 

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[Wineman]

Guys, looking for your advice.

I recently bought an M9 recently (BP, near mint) from a 100% customer satisfaction reputable seller. The camera was advertised as "Sensor replaced by Leica and will never corrode." I asked for documentation on the sensor replacement. He sent me a screenshot from Leica Germany, "The camera was last handled by Leica Store Singapore." I contacted Leica Singapore, sent the serial number and all info. They replied... 

"Thank you for your support in our product. We check our system there’s no record of sensor replacement or repair history.

But according to our technician , CCD: ID:15 is the new generation sensor."

I contacted Leica Germany, sent them my serial number. They said I should contact Leica Singapore.

 

The seller swears the sensor was replaced by Leica. Leica Germany says it was "handled" by Leica Singapore. Leica Singapore says they have no record of sensor replacement or repair history.

 

Here is my camera info:

CCD: ID: 15 

CCD Board: 2,

Control Brd ID: 6

M16C: 0 

Should I not worry about the sensor as it is a newer generation CCD: ID:15?

Or send the camera back? 

Thanks and looking for your experienced advice.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Wineman
I forgot to add that I sent my serial number to Leica.

[M9reno]

CCD ID 15 means the new (non-corroding) sensor is installed.

[Wineman]

4 hours ago, M9reno said:

CCD ID 15 means the new (non-corroding) sensor is installed.

Thanks. I was hoping for some documentation but I guess the main thing is that it's a CCD ID 15 sensor.

[M9reno]

12 hours ago, Wineman said:

Thanks. I was hoping for some documentation but I guess the main thing is that it's a CCD ID 15 sensor.

We would have read about it here if any CCD ID 15 sensor had shown corrosion since roll-out of the modification 8 years ago.

See also here:

https://kolarivision.com/product/kolari-sensor-replacement-service-for-the-leica-m9-camera/

"We are also able to install CCD 15 or CCD 16 sensors. These sensors were produced at the end of the M9 production and finally had the corrosion and acid gel issues addressed directly by Leica. We have never seen any CCD 15 or CCD 16 sensor/sensor glass suffer from either issue, and as such, we have no need to replace the glass with corrosion resistant Schott BG glass. If you opt in for a replacement to a CCD 15-16 sensor you will receive an original corrosion proof Leica sensor with fully stock Leica protective sensor glass."

[Wineman]

2 minutes ago, M9reno said:

We would have read about it here if any CCD ID 15 sensor had shown corrosion since roll-out of the modification 8 years ago.

See also here:

https://kolarivision.com/product/kolari-sensor-replacement-service-for-the-leica-m9-camera/

"We are also able to install CCD 15 or CCD 16 sensors. These sensors were produced at the end of the M9 production and finally had the corrosion and acid gel issues addressed directly by Leica. We have never seen any CCD 15 or CCD 16 sensor/sensor glass suffer from either issue, and as such, we have no need to replace the glass with corrosion resistant Schott BG glass. If you opt in for a replacement to a CCD 15-16 sensor you will receive an original corrosion proof Leica sensor with fully stock Leica protective sensor glass."

Thanks for the information! Yes, I've heard of Kolarivision. Appreciate it!

[Wineman]

36 minutes ago, M9reno said:

We would have read about it here if any CCD ID 15 sensor had shown corrosion since roll-out of the modification 8 years ago.

See also here:

https://kolarivision.com/product/kolari-sensor-replacement-service-for-the-leica-m9-camera/

"We are also able to install CCD 15 or CCD 16 sensors. These sensors were produced at the end of the M9 production and finally had the corrosion and acid gel issues addressed directly by Leica. We have never seen any CCD 15 or CCD 16 sensor/sensor glass suffer from either issue, and as such, we have no need to replace the glass with corrosion resistant Schott BG glass. If you opt in for a replacement to a CCD 15-16 sensor you will receive an original corrosion proof Leica sensor with fully stock Leica protective sensor glass."

Yes, that's why I asked here since if anyone knows, it the guys on this forum. Awesome community here. Cheers M9reno! 

[dpitt]

3 hours ago, M9reno said:

We would have read about it here if any CCD ID 15 sensor had shown corrosion since roll-out of the modification 8 years ago.

See also here:

https://kolarivision.com/product/kolari-sensor-replacement-service-for-the-leica-m9-camera/

"We are also able to install CCD 15 or CCD 16 sensors. These sensors were produced at the end of the M9 production and finally had the corrosion and acid gel issues addressed directly by Leica. We have never seen any CCD 15 or CCD 16 sensor/sensor glass suffer from either issue, and as such, we have no need to replace the glass with corrosion resistant Schott BG glass. If you opt in for a replacement to a CCD 15-16 sensor you will receive an original corrosion proof Leica sensor with fully stock Leica protective sensor glass."

I thought CCD 15  and CCD 16 sensors were out of stock? Leica claims they are unavailable. How can Kolarivision offer the replacement that Leica can't?

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by dpitt

[M9reno]

11 minutes ago, dpitt said:

I thought CCD 15  and CCD 16 sensors were out of stock? Leica claims they are unavailable. How can Kolarivision offer the replacement that Leica can't?

 

Good question.  I have no idea what the answer is.  The reason I posted the link was for confirmation that CCD 15 and 16 are the non-corroding sensors.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jdlaing]

2 hours ago, dpitt said:

I thought CCD 15  and CCD 16 sensors were out of stock? Leica claims they are unavailable. How can Kolarivision offer the replacement that Leica can't?

 

All Kolari Vision does is change cover glass as far as I remember.

[M9reno]

On 11/26/2023 at 5:30 PM, jdlaing said:

All Kolari Vision does is change cover glass as far as I remember.

The words causing surprise are, "We are also able to install CCD 15 or CCD 16 sensors", which appear in the Kolari site linked above.

They charge US $999 for corrosion repair or $2500 for sensor replacement.

The question then understandably arose whether Kolari have stock of CCD 15 or CCD 16 sensors when Leica no longer does?

The website defines "replacement" as follows: "This is a replacement of the entire sensor stack. This service will replace the stack with a fully functioning Leica CCD sensor including our corrosion resistant BG glass of choice.".

The words "a fully functioning Leica CCD sensor including our corrosion resistant BG glass of choice" suggest that their "CCD 15 or CCD 16" is an in-house bespoke replacement, using Kolari's choice of cover glass atop some version of the M9 Kodak sensor, so not really the same as Leica's CCD 15 or CCD 16.

Edited November 28, 2023 by M9reno