Faulty Q? Need your input

[petegd]

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Hello everyone, 

 

I recently purchased a Leica Q late last year. As I live where there is no dedicated Leica store, I am wondering if you all could help. 

 

If there is the slightest motion, whether it is kids or anything moving slightly, the photo is completely blurry. I have been unable to figure out what the reason is and am therefore wondering the camera is faulty. I have owned semi-pro cameras such as a Canon Mark IID before and have never had any issue remotely similar to this. Even when I change it AFc I get the same issue.  

 

I am enclosing a video and a few photos. The video shows how in AFc mode the camera tries to focus in and out after the focus supposedly has been achieved. The photos I'm enclosing show the lack of focus of a few pictures that I've taken. From the subject it can be seen that they are not moving dramatically. 

 

Stills are fantastic, but I’m getting tremendously frustrated, since a)kids are never still and my iPhone can take better motion shots. 

 

If you could please help me figure out if I’m doing something wrong here? 

 

Attached sample photos. I should note that without motion, pictures are great.

 

Also here's a web link showing the camera focussing in and out in AFc. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdC8UXBi_UQ&feature=youtu.be

 

I should add that I emailed technical info over a month ago and they told me to contact customer service (USA). I have been trying to communicate or speak to anyone from customer service for weeks now (sent two email and left a voice mail), 

but haven’t heard a peep other than her asking me for my serial number a few weeks back. I’m perplexed -does Customer Service really not care?  

 

Thanks so much everyone. 

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[kismetsky]

Yeah, that's normal.  AF-C will move focus continuously trying to find a moving object to track.  For your closer shots, I'd recommend using AF-S with a single point focus or face detect focus instead of multi-point.

[SonomaBear]

Welcome to the Q forum and we hope that your Q is everything you want.

I do not create videos often but when I do I like using the Q more than the my DSLRs -- I love 28mm for videos.  Now to the topic:

Focus is always an issue for videos since motion is involved and we all shoot with the viewer in mind.

Viewers hate to see focus hunt -- makes them dizzy!

Answers:  

(1) Manual focus is always best and very few cameras do it well -- but Leica has always excelled at manual focus.  Using the LCD, you see everything perfectly.  With focus peaking you instantly know what is in focus.  I often shoot conversations and I focus upon whomever is speaking, slowly changing focus areas to insure smoothness and happy viewers.  I also use wide apertures, rarely over f2.8 on the Q, mostly f1.7 when careful focussing is possible.

(2) Auto focus is best when subjects are active.  IMHO most cameras do mediocre jobs doing follow focus and facial recognition.  Other than the Canon EOS 1Dx-II (or some video-centric camera) auto focus is rarely smooth and accurate, hence unhappy viewers.

(3) For movement videos, I often use zone focus.  I noticed you selected f5.6 -- huge depth of field on 28mm full frame optics.  Just a wild guess but you could have kept the f5.6 (maybe even f8) and set the focus to about 6 feet.  From http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Using 6' at f5.6 your DoF will be 4.32~9.83' -- very good for most interior rooms.

Using 6' at f8.0 your DoF will be 3.87~13.4' -- wow!

(4) why not do both (1) and (3) by using focus peaking on your manual focus area, select the aperture to have your subject covered, manually focus your subject initially, and start taking your video.

 

 

 

[beez]

Looking at your still pictures, I downloaded them to look at your camera data, but there was none, so absent of knowing your settings, here's my take

 

1) Because the background is very blurred, but with motion, not just focus blur, I suspect the problem with this picture is camera shake/motion with a shutter speed that's too slow for the situation. What mode are you shooting in, and what were your settings for this exposure?

 

2) Nothing at all is in focus, but looking at the pink structure on the right, I see some camera movement, not just focus softness. The child is very soft, and that looks like some camera motion and missed focus combo. My guess here is because the pink structure is the closest object to being in focus, the culprit is both movement, and a camera being focused on the structure, and not the child. My guess is the shutter speed was also too slow.

 

3) This is simple missed focus - the buildings in the background are sharp, the child's face is not, so the focus spot was on the background.

 

Again, not knowing the exposure settings for each, these are only guesses. I'd recommend you use AF-S and move the focus spot around to where you want it to be before you release the shutter.

[petegd]

Beez, 

Sorry about not including the metadata. I had tried sending the images to Leica customer service/technical support and it bounced back, so I had to post it onto a weblink. That presumably stripped the data. 

 

Here are screenshots with the metadata appended. That'll make it easy for those who do not want to download the images. The next reply will contain the files with the metadata. 

 

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[petegd]

Here are the images with the metadata in case someone wants to download the files. 

 

What I find utterly perplexing is that I think I am using it in the correct way. I did after all own a Canon 5D with which I've never had any issues with (other than the weight). Obviously I would think that I'm focusing on the object. Case in point with 'baby on floor' - AFs with multi-focus. I took my sweet time. 

 

But I admit, I've never owned a Leica before, so maybe this is growing pains? Or is there a possibility the focus is faulty? 

 

I'm hoping to address this issue before I leave the US (permanently) in a couple of months. Would hate to have to deal with sending a camera in from overseas. On the other hand I don't want to send my Leica in 'for repair' if it's OK, as I don't want it to be labelled as a 'repaired' camera in Leica's database. 

 

Thanks again for the suggestions. Great help so far. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Big T]

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Do you have OIS on?

 

Try AF-S with OIS turned it off.

 

I have heard of OIS causing an issue when trying to use with moving subjects and continuous focus.

 

Just a wild thought. 

[Leica Guy]

Your second and third photos are at 1/60 sec. shutter speed. That's not helping get sharp photos. I also suggest AF-S, Go to shutter priority and set to 1/125. I don't use OIS much. Only in low light. Set ISO to A. You should get sharp photos. I don't shoot video so I'm no help there.

[petegd]

Thanks BigT - I'll try OIS off and see what that does. As for the shutter speed at 1/60 - I agree that doesn't help. It was on the Auto setting. I'm going over some of the other photos to see if the shutter speed is an issue.

 

But fundamentally the issue that having to change is from aperture to shutter priority, switch on or off OIS for a shot and then goes back negates the ability to take pictures of subjects moving quickly, such as kids running around. Isn't that why auto exists for those moments? 

 

I know that everyone here is a dedicated Leica person - no disrespect to the camera, but I'm just trying to figure out if there is something faulty with my device or if this is something that I just have to live with. As I mentioned, what I find unusual is that my 5DMark had none of that at all. Having customer service not respond to me after two emails and a phone call doesn't help. 

 

Thanks for further suggestions. 

[Belle123]

I suggest start debugging this by taking pictures of stationary objects and if still out of focus on either tripod or concentrating holding still, it's the camera. Can't really judge this on moving objects like a child. That's like trying to take photos of chickens. They can flick their head so fast, impossible to avoid blur. Once you deduce works stationary, try other settings as suggested. It is hard to tell from these photos if it's the camera focus problem or shooter movement.

[jmschuh]

 As I mentioned, what I find unusual is that my 5DMark had none of that at all.

 

 

With the questions you ask, it is unbeliveable that you own a Canon 5D. How did you use it? I would have invested the money for the Q in a photography course. Your mistakes when using the camera are not a problem of any camera, but missing photographic / technical knowledge.

[dadohead]

I agree with others; this looks like camera shake, not missed focus, except of the one of the baby on the ground. Indeed, in that photo focus has been acquired on the building in the background. Face detection works pretty well in the Q; use it if you can. Personally, I find that the multi-point AF in the Q is decidedly inferior to the multi-point AF in the 5D (whatever 5D; I've owned them all) at picking targets, and I rarely use multi-point in my 5D and never in the Q. Also, you can change the minimum shutter speed in the Auto mode. I seem to remember the Q defaults to 1/60 which is generally too slow unless you have good technique. Also, in my experience, it is actually harder to hold a smaller, lighter camera steady at slower speeds than a larger, heavier camera. In my opinion, the OIS in the Q is nearly worthless; I almost never turn it on. The photo in the middle is a head-scratcher, though. It's not missed focus and it's not camera shake; it's uniformly out of focus. I'm going to suggest that you turned the ring to macro and forgot about it; happens to everybody. Remember; unlike the 5D, the Q will not prevent firing in the absence of focus lock. The Q will happily shoot out of focus photos all day long if you're not paying attention.

 

There is a lot about the Q that is mystifying to even seasoned users. Leica treads its own path, and there was a long learning curve to the Q for me, and I've used Canon digital cameras for over 13 years. The Canon vs. Lecia philosophies are very, very different. Worse, the manual isn't worth the paper (or electrons) it's printed on, so you have to mess around a lot with the Q to figure out it's "special needs" and how you can leverage them for your work. I think I shot about 3,000 exposures with the Q until I started using it for things I cared about.

 

Finally, of all the photo boards I've participated on, this is without doubt the friendliest, most helpful. Of course, it's the internet, so the occasional pill shows up. Ignore him/her.

[SonomaBear]

I set my Auto ISO to limit at 12500 and minimum shutter of 1/125

OIS is used in some of my "User" settings.  Very handy for street photography, useless for portraits and landscapes.

Rarely use multi-focus.  Street=Facial, portrait=single point, landscape=multipoint, general=single point

We have all tried the Macro lens setting then not fully returned the lens to normal.  Common user error that we all do.

We have all used manual focus, then restored it to AF only to find we did not fully turn it to lock it.

The Q is best when deliberate.  Deliberate in choice of settings, then instinctive in composition and capture.

I have more focus errors on my Canon 6D than the Q.  But when I first got my Q, I had LOTS of focus errors!

With time comes near-perfection for the patient.

[beez]

Thanks BigT - I'll try OIS off and see what that does. As for the shutter speed at 1/60 - I agree that doesn't help. It was on the Auto setting. I'm going over some of the other photos to see if the shutter speed is an issue.

 

But fundamentally the issue that having to change is from aperture to shutter priority, switch on or off OIS for a shot and then goes back negates the ability to take pictures of subjects moving quickly, such as kids running around. Isn't that why auto exists for those moments? 

 

I know that everyone here is a dedicated Leica person - no disrespect to the camera, but I'm just trying to figure out if there is something faulty with my device or if this is something that I just have to live with. As I mentioned, what I find unusual is that my 5DMark had none of that at all. Having customer service not respond to me after two emails and a phone call doesn't help. 

 

Thanks for further suggestions. 

 

As I suspected above, you were using the camera in full auto mode, and your troubles have to do with your shutter speed being too low. The picture of the child on the ground proves there's really nothing wrong with your camera. The background is sharp, the child in the foreground is not - you (or the camera) have to focus on what you want sharp - in that case, the camera chose to focus on the background, which is why it's sharp. In this case, I'd say use AF-S and either keep the spot in the middle and drop your framing to focus o the subject, then lock focus, re-frame and shoot the picture. Or, frame the picture and move the focus spot to the subject and shoot the picture. Relying on the camera to find where you want it to focus in that kind of a situation is a recipe for blurry pictures.

 

The other two pictures, both shot at 1/60 sec, there's camera movement - the one that's the portrait of the boy, shows camera movement. You can tell because the stationary object is not only blurred from being out of focus, but it also shows camera movement blur from side-to-side. The boy isn't sharp because the camera chose not to to focus on him for some reason. With the picture of the the boy running toward you - at 1/60 sec, it shows both motion blur of the boy because he's moving, but also motion blur of the background because the camera is moving. But all is not lost - this picture is passably sharp in my opinion, and the motion of the boy enhances it. Henri Cartier-Bresson - a famous Leica user - shot a lot of very famous pictures that weren't tack sharp. One his most famous, a man jumping over a puddle, isn't very sharp, but sometimes it's the moment that makes the picture.

 

By choosing to shoot full auto, you've basically ceded all exposure and focus control to the camera. Just becasue it's in full auto, you can't expect to shoot marvelously sharp and perfectly exposed pictures, even with a camera that costs north of $4k.  In full auto mode, you should still be looking at the information presented to you in the viewfinder, and know if your shutter speed is too low to be shooting a moving child, and if it is, then you should open the aperture of the lens to make it higher. Or boost the ISO. The camera is pretty smart, but it has no way of determining if your subject is stationary or moving, or whether you're a person who can hold a camera still at 1/60 sec. Also don't expect OIS to fix this much movement - there's a lot of camera movement in two of these pictures, enough that no stability system in any camera will fix. And OIS will not fix the blur of a moving subject, only a faster shutter speed will.

 

All that said, I think your camera perfectly fine.

[petegd]

Wow, great responses. I'm really very grateful for your insight into this. It's good to get assurances from you that it seems to be my problem rather than an issue with the camera. Essentially means that there is something I can learn from.

 

I've only owned Canons for the past 20 years - nothing else - and while it made me exceptionally comfortable with the brand, it limited me a fair bit in understanding the quirks of other brands. This is the first time I've owned or even touched a Leica. I love it, but as dadohead says, the cameras are very different. It feels great, but there are quirks and little things I need to get used to. 

 

Thank you all -  I look forward to joining you in future discussions. 

[Leica Guy]

Wow, great responses. I'm really very grateful for your insight into this. It's good to get assurances from you that it seems to be my problem rather than an issue with the camera. Essentially means that there is something I can learn from.

 

I've only owned Canons for the past 20 years - nothing else - and while it made me exceptionally comfortable with the brand, it limited me a fair bit in understanding the quirks of other brands. This is the first time I've owned or even touched a Leica. I love it, but as dadohead says, the cameras are very different. It feels great, but there are quirks and little things I need to get used to.

 

Thank you all - I look forward to joining you in future discussions.

We look forward to seeing great photos from you. Welcome aboard.

[Edward2259]

i love the Leica Q... Ive used it in some of my work but its just too slow to rely on for any professional work.

Its great in the hand and feels like my M240 but with its firmware limitations its tooooooo sllllloooooow.

The lens is stunning.

I was going to keep mine but Leica has not bothered to address its issues so I'm selling. 

It would seems Leica treats the Leica Q as a fashion accessory and not a real camera which is sad as with a bit of work it could be a great camera.

Maybe the red, or tellow, or white or combat green is quicker 

[Peter L]

Interesting comments above , with today's cameras , the skill level required to take a decent photograph is minimal , everything auto, turn the thing on

hold it in front of your face compose and push the shutter, it helps if one knows a little about composition, of which there is a plethora of information on the net.

 

With manual film cameras , like a Leica m6 one would have to know a little more to get a decent photograph, basically the appropriate combinations of shutter speed and lens opening for certain conditions and effects, iso with film is fixed.

 

Even learning to drive a car (everything auto:-) requires more learning and skill.

 

Enter the Leica Q : probably the easiest and fastest photo taking camera I have ever encountered, unless it happens to be defective, RTM applies.

 

A lot of people take fantastic images with a smartphone (28 mm), kids included, how hard can it be ?

 

 

[bags27]

Interesting comments above , with today's cameras , the skill level required to take a decent photograph is minimal , everything auto, turn the thing on

hold it in front of your face compose and push the shutter, it helps if one knows a little about composition, of which there is a plethora of information on the net.

 

With manual film cameras , like a Leica m6 one would have to know a little more to get a decent photograph, basically the appropriate combinations of shutter speed and lens opening for certain conditions and effects, iso with film is fixed.

 

Even learning to drive a car (everything auto:-) requires more learning and skill.

 

Enter the Leica Q : probably the easiest and fastest photo taking camera I have ever encountered, unless it happens to be defective, RTM applies.

 

A lot of people take fantastic images with a smartphone (28 mm), kids included, how hard can it be ?

I'm not sure to whom your comments are responding above. Anyway, just to point out that the Leica film camera was itself exceptional, and most film cameras were more "automated" than that (with built-in light meters since the 60s) and therefore really just as much point-and-shoot (aperture or shutter speed control) as today's digitals. From the Brownie onwards, cameras have been pretty easy things to use. 

 

For me, and I suspect for a number of owners, the Q represents a challenge. Sure, you can point-and-shoot. But you can choose manual focus, and various priority controls, and the interface is simple enough that it is actually usable and therefore presents capacities for greater nuance. The gateway camera for me was the Fuji x100, whose interface was so extensive that I didn't use it at all--since learning it took me away from photography.

 

What my ramblings above are all about is that the simplicity of the Q actually invites greater photographic (rather than technological) complexity, IMHO.

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[Peter L]

I'm not sure to whom your comments are responding above. Anyway, just to point out that the Leica film camera was itself exceptional, and most film cameras were more "automated" than that (with built-in light meters since the 60s) and therefore really just as much point-and-shoot (aperture or shutter speed control) as today's digitals. From the Brownie onwards, cameras have been pretty easy things to use. 

 

The Leica M6TTL has a light meter built in , TTL stands for Through The Lens ( I owned several), getting off topic , All I am trying to point out is that most people who have problems with the Leica Q (unless the camera is defective) have not taken the time to sit down with the Q in hand and read the manual (RTM) and/or learn the basics of photography.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Peter L