AF Drive Problems Leica S Lenses: Official Statement by Leica

[albireo_double]

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On 4/4/2017 at 4:49 PM, albertknappmd said:

Leica would help itself by publishing the ACTUAL AF breakdown incidence: if it is really small, then expectant repair makes eminent sense, on the other hand if it is say greater than 15-20%, then prophylactic repair should be mandated.

I don't need any AF breakdown incidence statistics: out of my seven S lenses, four have had the AF motor failure. No reason to suggest a possibility that the incidence might be "really small". I am convinced that the AF motors will ALL break down, sooner or later, and should have been subject to a preventative and free recall a long time ago. If there is any equivalent to the "Dieselgate" in the photo industry, it is this. Now, all my lenses have been repaired for free, even one that was outside the 5-year limit. So I should be happy, no? The issue is that these AF failures inevitably occur while I am in the middle of a shoot (with a model and team being paid) or while traveling. And I have to use the system with the risk in mind that some of the lenses may fail and become an expensive (and heavy) paperweight for the rest of my shoot or journey. This means taking extra backup solutions - more weight to carry, more risk that stuff gets stolen etc. Which I don't want to face at this level of price, especially if a "permanent" solution has been found by Leica. So overall, even though as business person I understand Leica's approach, as user of the S system I am not satisfied with it. What I would recommend to Leica as a compromise, is (a) to offer free unlimited preventative repair of all lenses to all customers who will be buying the S3 and (b) publish a list of serial numbers in the Owners Area of lenses that already have had the "permament" solution installed. The latter point would also help support second hand prices of Leica S lenses.

[Photon42]

2 hours ago, albireo_double said:

Your kids will probably get it back for you at some point. My son says that he'll get me an Aston Martin when he's earned enough after his studies

Let us know how it plays out - I would go for the 007 edition / to match the camera 😎

[Photon42]

2 hours ago, albireo_double said:

What I would recommend to Leica as a compromise, is (a) to offer free unlimited preventative repair of all lenses to all customers who will be buying the S3 and (b) publish a list of serial numbers in the Owners Area of lenses that already have had the "permament" solution installed. The latter point would also help support second hand prices of Leica S lenses.

Both won't happen. The press will tear them to pieces on (a) + it puts again public focus on the problem. A list of lenses will eventually tell the world what has been sold. Once a list is out, it will float around.

[hoppyman]

Albert, I was very pleased for you when you reported that your outside of warranty lens was also fixed for free. I also see some issues if your recommendations were to be implemented. 

If i read you correctly you want purchasers of the S3 to be offered a different  warranty on AF defect repairs than to other users of the S system? Would that not be unfair to S lens owners who do not purchase the S3? 

Publishing a list of repaired/upgraded lenses might not only provide indications of production numbers and failure incidence. It might also potentially divulge some personal repair history of the current/previous owners of the lenses. Generally private sellers don't provide a complete serial number in an Ad (?) in any case, so how would you check against a published list? Of course any potential buyer can ask a seller for information on service history and take that into account. I think it would be unreasonable for Leica Camera to have to provide any information from the service history of a lens.  Lenses can fail from other causes too (as mine did after the AF defect was repaired). How much information should Leica Camera have to provide to anyone at all who is a registered customer or anyone that can see that list as it inevitably became public?

Would it not also potentially affect the second hand prices  for all of the lenses with serial numbers NOT listed?


 

[alan.y]

Leica has recently checked for me whether my S lenses have been serviced in Wetzlar after I sent them the serial numbers. I don’t think Leica will publish a whole list for the reasons given here but on a case by case basis they seem willing to confirm upgrade or no upgrade.

[helged]

2 hours ago, alan.y said:

Leica has recently checked for me whether my S lenses have been serviced in Wetzlar after I sent them the serial numbers. I don’t think Leica will publish a whole list for the reasons given here but on a case by case basis they seem willing to confirm upgrade or no upgrade.

Same with me - and I am about to ship several lenses to Wetzlar...

[sincurves]

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4 hours ago, helged said:

Same with me - and I am about to ship several lenses to Wetzlar...

Do you ship direct to Wetzlar or via your distributor? I have to ship a lens for AF repair and hope to avoid previous lenses 3-4 month turnaround...

[helged]

5 minutes ago, sincurves said:

Do you ship direct to Wetzlar or via your distributor? I have to ship a lens for AF repair and hope to avoid previous lenses 3-4 month turnaround...

I prefer shipping by myself, using DHL or UPS. This takes typically 4 working days from where I live in Norway, customs clearing included. 

[albireo_double]

What I meant by "publishing a list" could equally be a little window in the Owners' Area where I could enter the serial number (perhaps limited number of times per day/week) and the system would confirm if my lens has the improved mechanics installed. When I buy through a dealer (like mine in Vienna) I can of course see the serial number. Equally, I can usually also see the serial number on photos in eBay ads...or I could just ask the buyer to send me the number before pressing the buy button. I bought an ex-demo 35 CS recently, for a good price, from a dealer in Denmark, who advertised the lens on eBay as "with the new AF mechanism". Since they seemed a reputable seller, I took the risk, but I would have been happier to be able to check the serial number against a credible database. 

[hoppyman]

Albert it sounds like from a couple of replies here that you can ask Leica if a specific serial number has been updated. That would seem to avoid some possible problems with a published list? 

[xiaubauu2009]

Why would leica show us the serial no? It will confirm the amount of lens that is broken and giving us a proof of how bad this fiasco is. It's better to handle this case by case, 1 individual don't mean anything, divide and conquer.

[Jeff S]

We still wouldn’t know how many sold overall, revealing a more meaningful percentage.  

Jeff

[Sailronin]

Both 70mm and 120 macro suffered AF failure. The total repair bill was north for $900 USD. When the estimate came they asked if I wanted the work done, I replied “you have $6,000 dollars of my lenses, what am I supposed say? Send them back broken.”  

First I had sensor corrosion and my S (006) this Was replaced for free but my camera was away for almost six months. Then two lenses suffered AF failure as noted above and they were gone for over two months.  

While the image quality is beautiful, it’s not better than the CFV 50 back on HB 501, just more convenient outdoors. 

The Leica S is the worst photographic purchase I’ve ever made.  

Edited October 12, 2019 by Sailronin

[Photon42]

Seems to me like a more emotional than rational response. What are you going to do with your worst purchase ever? Sell the lenses with broken AF? If you bought camera and lenses new and are reasonably polite, are you sure you cannot work out a deal with Leica? My 120 and my 24 got fixed for free. I am not always in line with what they do and recently got quite annoyed by something else. However, with Leica I always felt respectful communication manners get you very far. No implications on yours, just talking from my experience.

 

[Sailronin]

HI Photon42,

Yes, bought the camera new but when they came out so sensor replacement (two years ago) was free.Leica was not interested in any kind of "deal" on the lenses. Of course I'm still using the S system, with over $25 K USD spent (not invested) I can't afford to dump it for almost nothing and start over with another medium format system. The files are beautiful and it handles well outdoors.  At some point if/when it fails again I will have to look at the value proposition for repairs; it may come down to forgetting medium format except for film cameras.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Sailronin

[alan.y]

On 10/13/2019 at 4:30 PM, Photon42 said:

Seems to me like a more emotional than rational response. What are you going to do with your worst purchase ever? Sell the lenses with broken AF? If you bought camera and lenses new and are reasonably polite, are you sure you cannot work out a deal with Leica? My 120 and my 24 got fixed for free. I am not always in line with what they do and recently got quite annoyed by something else. However, with Leica I always felt respectful communication manners get you very far. No implications on yours, just talking from my experience.

As much as I appreciate a small company's personal touch (and have benefited from it, specifically in the form of loaner units, sometimes offered proactively, sometimes not, sometimes only after I asked), I'd really much rather Leica be more transparent and treat all customers equally. You got your lenses fixed for free--was this because of your "politeness," the relative physical proximity of Zurich, or because they were on warranty? Sailronin has reported paying $500 or so per repair, a figure consistent with my own inquiries.

Emotions run high in part because Leica's non-communication and ad hoc treatment forces customers to resort to sharing anecdotes and rumors to guess at its intentions. It's hard to respond rationally to chronic inscrutability/nonchalance/disorganization. I'm also rather doubtful it benefits the S system's long-term survival.

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by alan.y

[Photon42]

Hi Alan

what Leica told me is, that my lenses qualified due to their manufacture date, at the time of the incident not exceeding five years. Maybe you are missing my main point which is, not having the lenses repaired puts one in a worse position than before. That was the emotional piece I did refer to. Lenses with a broken AF do not sell. Nor are they fun to use, either. If Leica's last word is they will charge for the repair, I would do it. I am not saying I would like it. Not preparing the lenses hurts the owner more than the company, if this was ever a thought at all.

Cheers

Ivo

[Sailronin]

Photon,

I did of course have my lenses repaired, my question was "what am I going to do, send them back broken?" My sarcasms didn't translate well. 

[Photon42]

19 minutes ago, Sailronin said:

Photon,

I did of course have my lenses repaired, my question was "what am I going to do, send them back broken?" My sarcasms didn't translate well. 

Sorry for that .... no glass broken

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[Sarnian]

1 hour ago, Photon42 said:

what Leica told me is, that my lenses qualified due to their manufacture date, at the time of the incident not exceeding five years. 

My secondhand 30-90mm still has 1 year warranty left on it, however, I can’t send the lens in for a free AF replacement as the AF motor currently works fine. If I want to have the AF motor replaced as a preventative measure - to make it vastly more saleable - then I would have to pay (my 30mm cost me £204 including return shipping).

Btw, I don’t have a dealer so I’m sending my lenses direct to Wetzlar using FedEx. Seems a pretty quick process so far.