caissa Posted March 23, 2017 Share #101 Posted March 23, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) We all should do our "annual service" - at least that is what the doctor keeps telling me. So maybe this good man thought what is good enough for him is also good enough for his beloved camera.... Your examples of people "outside" this forum are a bit queer. My experience is that there are mainly "normal" average enthusiasts with some money to spend (in retirement or after a partner or family member has left a heritage.) Most of them simply love the "high class" gear, in the same way they love high class stereos or cars or bikes. They are usually not the "bling"-searching type. And usually they are not oligarchs (unlike you an me ). Some of them may be bad-hearing, so they think a special camera is better than a exceptional quality stereo... And a camera produces less pollution than a sports car.... I am actually quite glad that this forum is not an exact copy of the world outside (or vice versa). Just think if any simple review would cause so much distress in the real world ... in reality usually nobody takes the time to look at the adds in such detail. And would not quarrel about the pros and cons of products not useful for him/her ... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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wattsy Posted March 23, 2017 Share #102 Posted March 23, 2017 I find it hard to believe Leica is a status product when the general public ...... and the majority of even the camera buying public are totally ignorant of it as a camera brand. Quite often status products are ones only recognised by those "in the know". Part of the attraction can be that the products are not widely known and using them suggests the user has a more refined taste and/or expertise. It isn't always about impressing others but about satisfying the buyer that he or she has reached a certain station in life or level of expertise that can only be matched by buying the best. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted March 23, 2017 Share #103 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) Quite often status products are ones only recognised by those "in the know". Part of the attraction can be that the products are not widely known...satisfying the buyer that he or she has reached a certain station in lifeQuite. And reinforced by puff pieces like this in the FT's tastefully titled 'How to Spend It' supplement: https://howtospendit.ft.com/technology/117073-leicas-gripping-collaboration-with-artist-and-designer-rolf-sachs Further up the thread, somebody surmised that the blingification of the Leica brand could potentially alienate the traditional user base. The reality is that Leica has already largely lost reportage photographers who in the past would have used Ms alongside their 'Japanese junk'. Today, they're supplementing their 5Ds with Sonys, Fujis and micro43 cameras. Edited March 23, 2017 by almoore Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted March 23, 2017 Share #104 Posted March 23, 2017 If it is allowed to do a comparison with cars:I believe there are some people who drive a Mercedes/Lexus/BMW/Audi and enjoy that other people see/watch them and see that they can afford a high priced car. People who want to show off. I am however convinced there are much more people who drive such cars because they appreciate the comfort, safety and reliability, design, the added value. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropo54 Posted March 23, 2017 Share #105 Posted March 23, 2017 Why are so many hung up on why some may have purchased their Leica products? What is the difference? One either enjoys the product for what it does, or does not. One chooses to pay the price, or does not! I am a talentless hobbyist (!) but I enjoy using the well made quality products and not ever wondering whether there might be a less expensive product that can produce (as Steve Huff might say) 90% of the quality that a better alternative might produce. And, if Leica gets into the bling game, why be concerned? There are so many very talented photographers here posting fabulous images. Let each person pick the tool that they choose which works for them. The car analogy is apropos. Any vehicle can get one from point A to point B. But each vehicle does it differently and in its own way. If someone chooses to pay the price for luxury, or speed, or high-tech, or bling so be it. If there is a vanity issue for someone, it does not make me feel any less worthy about who I am. As for camera gear, I recognize my limitations! But, I'm having fun, trying to become better and 'enjoying the ride'! (And, enjoying the silly banter. ) 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted March 23, 2017 Share #106 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) if Leica gets into the bling game, why be concerned?Because it could come at the expense of future non-blingy product development. Edited March 23, 2017 by almoore Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropo54 Posted March 23, 2017 Share #107 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Because it could come at the expense of future non-blingy product development. So it sounds like you love the Leica product but you are concerned that they will generate too much income from glamour products at the expense of continuing to innovate and produce quality? Do you think that is where they are at now? Of course, as some others have opined, the 'glamour' income may also fund the innovative side. Edited March 23, 2017 by ropo54 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geetee1972 Posted March 23, 2017 Share #108 Posted March 23, 2017 This is what scares people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donzo98 Posted March 23, 2017 Share #109 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) If it is allowed to do a comparison with cars: I believe there are some people who drive a Mercedes/Lexus/BMW/Audi and enjoy that other people see/watch them and see that they can afford a high priced car. People who want to show off. I am however convinced there are much more people who drive such cars because they appreciate the comfort, safety and reliability, design, the added value. I drive a black Porsche Panamera... I love it. I have worked my ass off through the years... and have always wanted a Porsche. The Panamera is big enough for the kids to go in the back seat... unlike the 911. When they grow up... 911 I could care less who thinks what about it... Same thing for the Leica stuff... I had a ton of Nikon stuff that I sold off... and now replaced it with Leica. It is a big pill to swallow though, 5K for a 50mm F1.4 is big dough!! I have the Q, SL, 24-90, 50 F0.95 and the 50SL (incoming). I will sell either the 50SL or Nocti... after comparing them. Edited March 23, 2017 by Donzo98 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geetee1972 Posted March 23, 2017 Share #110 Posted March 23, 2017 I could care less who thinks what about it... Do you care about the Gini Coefficient and it's alarming correlation to violent crime? I respect your work ethic but just out of interest how much do you get to see your kids? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Lowe Posted March 23, 2017 Share #111 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) If only people spent half the time using their gear that they spend gossiping about how strangers use their gear. Edited March 23, 2017 by Joshua Lowe 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donzo98 Posted March 23, 2017 Share #112 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) Do you care about the Gini Coefficient and it's alarming correlation to violent crime? I respect your work ethic but just out of interest how much do you get to see your kids? I see my kids all the time... every day and night. Are you implying that I work so much that I have no time for my family? If so.. way off base. I am a neurosurgeon... I spent a long time training.. and very proud of my career. As to the Gini Coefficient... I had never heard of it until I googled it... and no, I don't really care about it. Edited March 23, 2017 by Donzo98 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geetee1972 Posted March 23, 2017 Share #113 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) I see my kids all the time... every day and night. Are you implying that I work so much that I have no time for my family? If so.. way off base. No no, wasn't implying that at all. I have kids also. I work reasonably hard (well 40 hours a week) and see them almost every morning and evening. Those are the things that matter. As to the Gini Coefficient... I had never heard of it until I googled it... and no, I don't really care about it. It doesn't bother you that the bigger the disparity in wealth in a society the more that society suffers from violence crime? That surprises me (given that you're a neuro surgeon). It's the reason why the US has such a problem with homicides (and not because there are lots of guns). Edited March 23, 2017 by geetee1972 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted March 23, 2017 Share #114 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) Lay off the personal comments please. People are perfectly entitled to do what they want with their own lives and money within the laws of their country. There is no obligation to follow the morality of others. Edited March 23, 2017 by thighslapper 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropo54 Posted March 23, 2017 Share #115 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) There's a serious and growing concern worldwide about wealth disparity, no doubt. And, I hardly mind discussing it here, though, I am not sure that it is really topical to the Leica discussions. And, frankly, I'd love to ban guns in our country. There are plenty of social ills gripping modern societies (in all countries). But it is not fair to presume Donzo has no interest in bettering the world through his individual acts. You really have no insight into what makes any of us tick here. Why disparage others? Why be so self-righteous? Can people who drive Porsches not make the world a better place? Can people who buy Hasselblad Sonys not be altruistic. I just do not comprehend what ticks you off, but it does not seem that those concerns are apropos of posting on a community photography site. Everyone here shares a common interest in photography and artistic endeavors. Why not appreciate the virtues and contributions that each can offer? (That also might help make the world a better place. ) Edited March 23, 2017 by ropo54 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donzo98 Posted March 23, 2017 Share #116 Posted March 23, 2017 I make the world a better place by what I do in my career... as well as my interactions with others in my daily life. My car or camera choices have nothing to do with that... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geetee1972 Posted March 23, 2017 Share #117 Posted March 23, 2017 Lay off the personal comments please. You'll have to point them out as I don't see any, just healthy debate. There is no obligation to follow the morality of others. I agree but there is also no obligation for anyone not to call someone else out on it and hold them to account for their view. But it is not fair to presume Donzo has no interest in bettering the world through his individual acts. I never said he didn't. I asked him if he cared about the degree of income disparity in the US and he said he didn't, which genuinely surprised me. I am not saying he's a good or bad person; I'm just surprised he doesn't see it as more of an issue. I would be interested to know why. Why disparage others? Well in the confines of this thread and forum I'm not. I am being quite challenging and the thread has progressed far beyond the original intent but, and this is really important, the debate is what is important. It's what makes us a democracy. It's what makes us better and I honestly and sincerely do it from an assumed perspective of respect for others. Why be so self-righteous? I'm not sure I am being? I have values that are important and that's what is now being discussed. Can people who drive Porsches not make the world a better place? Of course they can. I never said they couldn't (btw my brother drives a 911). Can people who buy Hasselblad Sonys not be altruistic. Maybe but they're definitely ill informed and being very rich and ill informed is usually a dangerous combination as you guys know all too well right now. just do not comprehend what ticks you off, A lot of things do - third wave feminism for a start, the fact that as a man it's very hard for society to ascribe me success for anything other than my career achievements. Hypocrisy is a big bug bear of mine. but it does not seem that those concerns are apropos of posting on a community photography site. Well yes, you're probably right, but then the term 'photography site' is a pretty generous phrase to describe this place. I mean, it's not like there's a lot of photography going on here. There's a lot of gear talk and that definitely wrankles because it makes me worry about my (recent) decision to buy into the Leica brand. Everyone here shares a common interest in photography and artistic endeavors. This part I entirely disagree with and that is part of the point. I don't see much evidence for people aspiring to create something truly beautiful or important or insightful. I'm not saying I do. I try very hard and I can demonstrate that but I lack talent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 23, 2017 Share #118 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) This is what scares people. Not really. Leica already rebadges Panasonics and has done so for years. Leica was in trouble, and it was the M9 which saved it (with an injection of venture capital). Since then, it has expended its range and developed a ground breaking product in the SL. Hasselblad was in trouble when it released those rebadged Sonys, and it didn't save it. The X1D, H6D and an injection of shareholder funds will probably save Hasselblad, if they get the X1D more polished. Leica producing collectible versions of its own products is not even remotely the same as the Hasselblad Sonys - they are Leica products, and they generally sell well. The problem with those Sonys is that they were never going to sell well. The benefit of the collectible Leica's is that they are Leicas and they do sell well. Even a passing look at Leica products since 2009 shows this. Is there any correlation between Leica producing a collectible item resulting in a reduction in R&D or production? Company looks profitable to me, and is offering more products than ever before ... Edited March 23, 2017 by IkarusJohn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Lowe Posted March 23, 2017 Share #119 Posted March 23, 2017 Whoever signed off on those Sonyblads should be fired and then immediately re-hired only to be fired a second time for the sake of emphasis. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donzo98 Posted March 23, 2017 Share #120 Posted March 23, 2017 "I never said he didn't. I asked him if he cared about the degree of income disparity in the US and he said he didn't, which genuinely surprised me. I am not saying he's a good or bad person; I'm just surprised he doesn't see it as more of an issue. I would be interested to know why." I worry about things that I have some control over... the income disparity issue is not one of those things. I am trying to my best to raise happy, well adjustedl kids, take good care of my patients and treat people equally. That's about the best I can do... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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