M10? - Sorry, no!

[jaapv]

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I rather think it is the same Leitmotif again - heat management is difficult in an M body. The sensor probably heats up more than other FF cameras, causing more sensor noise, and as this type of noise is best eliminated by an immediate black frame and very hard to remove later on, Leica will not allow it to diminish quality.

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[jmahto]

I rather think it is the same Leitmotif again - heat management is difficult in an M body. The sensor probably heats up more than other FF cameras, causing more sensor noise, and as this type of noise is best eliminated by an immediate black frame and very hard to remove later on, Leica will not allow it to diminish quality.

Maybe. Only Leica knows why they can't address it. However it seems to me that for them traditional shape/thickness is more important than fixing these issues (in fact thinner body probably aggravates heat issue). This is why I look at all the talk of "perfecting still photography" with a grain of salt.

[jaapv]

BTW, I am wondering whether there is an English word for Leitmotif. In Dutch and Scandinavian languages we refer to a red thread (which is the same as the King's Yarn in Navy cordage - only it was white in the Royal Navy) but I don't think that is a common expression in English.

[jmahto]

BTW, I am wondering whether there is an English word for Leitmotif. In Dutch and Scandinavian languages we refer to a red thread (which is the same as the Kings Yarn in Navy cordage) but I don't think that is a common expression in English.

I had to look it up. I think "recurring theme" is closest..... or "nagging"

[LocalHero1953]

We talk about "a common thread", or "a thread running through it", but not a red one, though it could have the same origin

[lct]

Yes, an electronic (option) shutter would be nice to be able to use Noctiluxes etc. wide open without ND filters.

 

 An electronic shutter could also reduce blackout times i guess. 

[jmahto]

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I expect we will see upgrades in both of these areas over time. As well as in other areas.

I don't. These don't seem to be priority. We have waited long enough...

[Dirk Mandeville]

However it seems to me that for them traditional shape/thickness is more important than fixing these issues (in fact thinner body probably aggravates heat issue). This is why I look at all the talk of "perfecting still photography" with a grain of salt.

Perhaps that's because a lot of their customers were asking for this. A lot of longtime M shooters particularly. And in fact, many who now have the M10 are praising the size and feel of it as compared to a film M. God forbid a company should listen to their customers in designing their next product. The M is not an SLR. It's not a jack of all trades. It's a compact rangefinder camera. A niche product. And they are catering to their niche. Best I can tell, the people complaining about the M10 are complaining because it is not something it was never intended to be and most of its users don't care for it to be.

[jmahto]

LENR? We have been requesting to make it optional since 2006...   IBIS? Space constraints.  Either of these would be a small miracle.

Exactly... I am thinking of getting an old Olympus EM body for $250 to get these features. I accept that M need to be supplemented since it is not jack of all trade camera. However I don't believe in "perfecting still photography" focus talk for M.

[jmahto]

Perhaps that's because a lot of their customers were asking for this. A lot of longtime M shooters particularly. And in fact, many who now have the M10 are praising the size and feel of it as compared to a film M. God forbid a company should listen to their customers in designing their next product. The M is not an SLR. It's not a jack of all trades. It's a compact rangefinder camera. A niche product. And they are catering to their niche. Best I can tell, the people complaining about the M10 are complaining because it is not something it was never intended to be and most of its users don't care for it to be.

I don't have any issue with that. But I have issue with deluding ourselves that the design goal is perfecting photography (in RF mode). 

 

edit: changed "still photography" to photography.

[cp995]

Exactly... I am thinking of getting an old Olympus EM body for $250 to get these features....

 

In this case you're a lucky guy and can save a lot of money

[jmahto]

In this case you're a lucky guy and can save a lot of money

You can be lucky too.

[LocalHero1953]

Perhaps that's because a lot of their customers were asking for this. A lot of longtime M shooters particularly. And in fact, many who now have the M10 are praising the size and feel of it as compared to a film M. God forbid a company should listen to their customers in designing their next product. The M is not an SLR. It's not a jack of all trades. It's a compact rangefinder camera. A niche product. And they are catering to their niche. Best I can tell, the people complaining about the M10 are complaining because it is not something it was never intended to be and most of its users don't care for it to be.

While you may be strictly correct, I think they are actually complaining because the M10 is not the M240 plus all the other improvements that have been introduced - functionality has been taken away.

The real disagreement here is whether the M10 is a better or a worse camera for not having video or USB. I suspect this will be a fault line similar to PC or Mac, film or digital, or whether the loose end of the loo roll hangs next to the wall or not.

[Steve Spencer]

You can be lucky too.

 

Not really I don't need another system and I would have to buy a few lenses too. I would want to get at least the Panny Leica trio of 15 lux, 25 lux, and 42.5 Nocticron. That plus the camera would set me back more like $2,000. I am glad that the camera may work for you, but it wouldn't work for my needs.

[Dirk Mandeville]

or whether the loose end of the loo roll hangs next to the wall or not.

I was firmly in the camp of loose end sits in front of the roll ... until I got cats. My cat can empty an entire roll onto the floor in ten seconds flat! So I had to join the dark side.

[jmahto]

Not really I don't need another system and I would have to buy a few lenses too. I would want to get at least the Panny Leica trio of 15 lux, 25 lux, and 42.5 Nocticron. That plus the camera would set me back more like $2,000. I am glad that the camera may work for you, but it wouldn't work for my needs.

My goal also is to avoid a second camera system. In fact most of my needs are fulfilled by M240 but for tele lens (add video need if I go with M10) usage I have to resort to other systems. This is the point I (and some others) have been making. I love M and will be happier if M can cover those fringe use cases as well. A better EVF,USB, long exposure, video will go a long way in extending the core strength of M.

[IkarusJohn]

With the almost universal response to the M8 LCD and M9 sensor issues, that it's an electronic device with a limited user life, I have come to view my "investment" in the Leica M system as being primarily in its fabulous lenses.  I am down to 2 M cameras (M-A and vi Monochrom), and I'm unlikely to change that situation any time soon.

 

For colour, excellent EVF and all that is not covered by the M cameras, the SL is a perfect complement to a wider Leica system.  If I was looking for a colour digital M camera, then I would almost certainly jump at the M10 - it is mature, refined and well considered product which is playing to its strengths rather than trying to be everything to all photographers.  It was never going to be that, and never will be.  The heart of the system is the rangefinder mechanism, and that brings strengths and limitations.  For those requirements outside those limitations, there is the Sl in full frame and the TL in APS-C.

 

We are very well served, all around excellent manual focus M lenses.

[Steve Spencer]

My goal also is to avoid a second camera system. In fact most of my needs are fulfilled by M240 but for tele lens (add video need if I go with M10) usage I have to resort to other systems. This is the point I (and some others) have been making. I love M and will be happier if M can cover those fringe use cases as well. A better EVF,USB, long exposure, video will go a long way in extending the core strength of M.

 

Well for me I have several camera systems (although M4/3rds is not one of them) and the M system just could never be enough. I like it very much for what it does, however. My point was mostly that adding another system is not going to be a cheap add on. You will need more than the camera, but also lenses and for many peripherals as well. So, it is not an inexpensive route to take. I am not saying it isn't worth it. It is to me, but one must be ready to fork over some serious cash and think long and hard about what exactly they want.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jmahto]

Well for me I have several camera systems (although M4/3rds is not one of them) and the M system just could never be enough. I like it very much for what it does, however. My point was mostly that adding another system is not going to be a cheap add on. You will need more than the camera, but also lenses and for many peripherals as well. So, it is not an inexpensive route to take. I am not saying it isn't worth it. It is to me, but one must be ready to fork over some serious cash and think long and hard about what exactly they want.

I agree that second system (within Leica, as in SL, TL or outside) expense quickly adds up. This is why if someone doesn't have a serious usecase outside M's core usage then they should be able to manage with M alone. support of EVF in M (M10 and M240 both) is useful for this extended reach and it doesn't diminish the core strength of M. M240's video was also similar. It didn't diminish the core strength of M240 and if you didn't want that then you could disable it.

 

I would have expected a similar philosophy in M line to be continued (core strength + features for extended usecase). Apparently that is not the case starting from M10.

[Steve Spencer]

I agree that second system (within Leica, as in SL, TL or outside) expense quickly adds up. This is why if someone doesn't have a serious usecase outside M's core usage then they should be able to manage with M alone. support of EVF in M (M10 and M240 both) is useful for this extended reach and it doesn't diminish the core strength of M. M240's video was also similar. It didn't diminish the core strength of M240 and if you didn't want that then you could disable it.

 

I would have expected a similar philosophy in M line to be continued (core strength + features for extended usecase). Apparently that is not the case starting from M10.

 

That is is where I think we disagree, although we agree on much. I think it is way too early to know what will be available for the M10 generation of cameras. I think it is clear they made the M10 for the typical use case of the M, whether they will add the capability for extended use cases still remain to be seen. We already know that extended use for longer or extreme wide angle lenses is enhanced by the EVF. I think extended use for black and white with a monochrome is quite likely. I think extended use with a grip at some point (maybe when they introduce the P model) is also pretty likely. Extended use for video is less likely, but I still think it might happen. I think what we see in the M10 is that most extended use cases aren't included in base model--the lone exception is the EVF which is quite useful even for some M lenses--but I don't think that tells us anything about what will be available for the whole generation of cameras. We will just have to wait and see what they do. By the time the M11 comes around we will have a lot better idea of what Leica has in mind for the M series, but until then we will have to wait and see. I understand if people need certain functions that aren't satisfied by the M240 and can't wait, but I think we should all be careful about assuming that what isn't in the M10 won't be in any variant of the M10 or even added through new peripherals. I will be very surprised if nothing is added, but I have no crystal ball that tells me exactly what will and will not be added either.