Paul J Posted March 4, 2017 Share #381 Posted March 4, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) No my argument is not based on the assumption that Leica will introduce a grip for sure. My argument is just that your argument is premature until we know whether Leica will introduce grip, and I disagree that the argument is clear that if you want tethering and video you have the SL for now. In fact that statement is wrong. If you want video and tethering you can get an SL, but you still can get an M240, so if you want a M and tethering and/or video you still have an M option. If Leica drops the M240 before offering an M variant with functions that the M240 has that the M10 does not, then your argument would hold merit, but if the M240 is still available, then you are just complaining about the speed of the upgrade cycle and not the features actually being dropped from the M line. It is fine to complain about the speed of the upgrade cycle, but that shouldn't be misidentified as claiming Leica dropped something that you needed. They have not. You can still get an M with tethering and video if you like. Don't shoot the messenger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 Hi Paul J, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Paul J Posted March 4, 2017 Share #382 Posted March 4, 2017 The problem with comments like these is that they assume so much for which there is no supportive evidence. Whose to say whether this forum represents the majority of Leica's current user base and/or potential customers? We have lots of longtime Leica users, as well as some that are new to the brand. Whose to say whether the inclusion of video matters to a larger customer base? Lack of it certainly didn't hurt sales of the M8 and M9. Did M240 sales spike because video was included? I highly doubt it. Finally, whose to say a future iteration of the M10 won't have video? We just don't know at this point. I think most people that choose another camera over the Leica will do so because of the price or the unease with manual rangefinder focusing, not because of a lack of something like video. USB, Dirk. USB. There are very few pros here. I can't name one other regular here that uses this camera in the same way, yet away from here I know far more who do. So both groups would be inaccurate to make a poll from. It's quite simple and there is no assumption in that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted March 4, 2017 Share #383 Posted March 4, 2017 Don't shoot the messenger. I am not shooting the messenger. I am just pointing out what is incorrect, inconsistent and illogical in your arguments. You are claiming that Leica has dropped support for USB and tethering and that isn't true--they still make the M240. You are claiming Leica has dropped support for video and that isn't true either. You assume that no variant of the M10 will have USB or video and we just can't know that. You can have what you want with an M camera--the M240--but that isn't enough--and yet you say you would be happy if you just had USB support. I think you could say that you are disappointed that Leica didn't include USB support yet in the M10, but you go further and claim they have dropped that support without knowing whether they will offer it in future variants of the M10 and while they are still offering the M240. That just isn't a sensible argument. I'm not shooting the messenger, I am noting the message is a bit overwrought, not really what is happening, and makes unwarranted assumptions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 4, 2017 Share #384 Posted March 4, 2017 I agree with Steve. This thread is full of grumbling based on inaccurate information ("Leica has dropped video and USB" -- No, they haven't. The M240 remains in the lineup.) and unfounded assumptions ("Leica is abandoning us / forcing us to buy an SL or change brands" -- None of us know what Leica plans for the next few years. Could be an updated M240, could be an M10 with video, or could be that you are correct). All of this based on one model release which lacks two features contained in one prior model release. Simply put, if the pros who require tethering and the aficionados who require video make up a substantial enough share of their market, I expect Leica will come up with a solution for them. If not, then who can really blame them for omitting those features? As far as tethering goes, though, I fully expect Leica will replace all of that functionality wirelessly via wifi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 4, 2017 Share #385 Posted March 4, 2017 [...] they still make the M240 [...] Any evidence of that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted March 4, 2017 Share #386 Posted March 4, 2017 Any evidence of that? OK, I can be more precise. They still sell the M240. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 4, 2017 Share #387 Posted March 4, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) OK, I can be more precise. They still sell the M240. They are selling the remaining stock indeed. Not sure what conclusion one can infer from that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 4, 2017 Share #388 Posted March 4, 2017 USB, Dirk. USB. There are very few pros here. I can't name one other regular here that uses this camera in the same way, yet away from here I know far more who do. So both groups would be inaccurate to make a poll from. It's quite simple and there is no assumption in that. Do we really need a poll for USB, though? I think it is pretty safe to say that the vast majority of Leica M users have rarely, if ever, used USB tethering with their M cameras. I know I haven't, but I'm not a pro or a studio photographer. Likewise, with all the pros that actually do need and use USB, I expect a minuscule number of them would prefer to shoot with an M camera vs all the other options. There is a reason there are very few pros in this forum. The Leica M was never intended as a pro studio camera and isn't optimized for that function. What did you and your friends use before USB was even an option on an M camera? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAK Posted March 4, 2017 Share #389 Posted March 4, 2017 I never used video and therefore I shan't miss it in the M10, but I think the urge to get rid of a virtually invisible feature that some people like is one of the less attractive manifestations of Leica traditionalism. Video comes with at least the additional manufacturing costs which the buyer has to pay for, and if most buyers are indifferent (if not opposed in principle) to the inclusion of video, then it makes sense to remove it and lower the price. I don't do much video myself either, but I have yet to read rave reviews of the implementation of video in the M240. If the quality is fair, at best, then does it belong in a Leica? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted March 4, 2017 Share #390 Posted March 4, 2017 They are selling the remaining stock indeed. Not sure what conclusion one can infer from that. I think the conclusion is that an M camera with video and USB is still available for purchase. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted March 4, 2017 Share #391 Posted March 4, 2017 They are selling the remaining stock indeed. Not sure what conclusion one can infer from that. Much as they are selling the remaining stock of the M10, with many transfers between shops that still have some? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 4, 2017 Share #392 Posted March 4, 2017 The problem with comments like these is that they assume so much for which there is no supportive evidence. Whose to say whether this forum represents the majority of Leica's current user base and/or potential customers? We have lots of longtime Leica users, as well as some that are new to the brand. Whose to say whether the inclusion of video matters to a larger customer base? Lack of it certainly didn't hurt sales of the M8 and M9. Did M240 sales spike because video was included? I highly doubt it. Finally, whose to say a future iteration of the M10 won't have video? We just don't know at this point. I think most people that choose another camera over the Leica will do so because of the price or the unease with manual rangefinder focusing, not because of a lack of something like video. there is no rational basis for that last remark. I am indeed moving on to another system for a part of my photography, and I have been using M cameras for over forty years and have purchased six digital M cameras over the last decade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 4, 2017 Share #393 Posted March 4, 2017 I am not shooting the messenger. I am just pointing out what is incorrect, inconsistent and illogical in your arguments. You are claiming that Leica has dropped support for USB and tethering and that isn't true--they still make the M240. You are claiming Leica has dropped support for video and that isn't true either. You assume that no variant of the M10 will have USB or video and we just can't know that. You can have what you want with an M camera--the M240--but that isn't enough--and yet you say you would be happy if you just had USB support. I think you could say that you are disappointed that Leica didn't include USB support yet in the M10, but you go further and claim they have dropped that support without knowing whether they will offer it in future variants of the M10 and while they are still offering the M240. That just isn't a sensible argument. I'm not shooting the messenger, I am noting the message is a bit overwrought, not really what is happening, and makes unwarranted assumptions.you obviously have not read the interview linked to earlier in this thread. Leica's intentions are crystal clear. Erwin Puts draws the same conclusion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 4, 2017 Share #394 Posted March 4, 2017 "unease with manual rangefinder focusing"... funny indeed. Got my first M4 in 1971 and i focus those things w/o even thinking of it. What i want is a modern rangefinder. Easy to understand no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 4, 2017 Share #395 Posted March 4, 2017 I am not shooting the messenger. I am just pointing out what is incorrect, inconsistent and illogical in your arguments. You are claiming that Leica has dropped support for USB and tethering and that isn't true--they still make the M240. You are claiming Leica has dropped support for video and that isn't true either. You assume that no variant of the M10 will have USB or video and we just can't know that. You can have what you want with an M camera--the M240--but that isn't enough--and yet you say you would be happy if you just had USB support. I think you could say that you are disappointed that Leica didn't include USB support yet in the M10, but you go further and claim they have dropped that support without knowing whether they will offer it in future variants of the M10 and while they are still offering the M240. That just isn't a sensible argument. I'm not shooting the messenger, I am noting the message is a bit overwrought, not really what is happening, and makes unwarranted assumptions. Yes you are shooting the messenger. If you ask Leica, like I have, then you will most likely get the same response. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted March 4, 2017 Share #396 Posted March 4, 2017 you obviously have not read the interview linked to earlier in this thread. Leica's intentions are crystal clear. Erwin Puts draws the same conclusion. I have read the interview and I don't think Leica's direction is clear at all. I think it is clear that for the most serious video shooters the SL will be the premier platform. It is also of course clear that the base M10 that has just been introduced does not have video and that was a clear choice. I see nothing, however, in those statements that make it clear that there will not be a variant of the M10 that will have video. I see nothing in those statements that make it clear that there won't be successor to the M240 as a different line that will offer video. Simple put Leica has not announced they will not support video in either M10 variants or another alternative line of M cameras. In addition, they still sell an M camera that offers video, so until either they stop selling an M camera that supports video or they announce they will no longer support video on future M cameras I think it is inaccurate to say that Leica does not support video on M cameras and premature to conclude they will not support video on future M cameras. I think one can conclude that the highest level of support for video will be on the SL line, but that does not mean no support on the M line and there is lots of room for more functional video than on the M240 and yet a lower level of support for video than on the SL in a future M camera. Note I am not saying such a camera will be produce, but I am saying that I don't see anything that makes it crystal clear they won't produce such a camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted March 4, 2017 Share #397 Posted March 4, 2017 Yes you are shooting the messenger. If you ask Leica, like I have, then you will most likely get the same response. If Leica has shared a special message with you, then please share it. I promise I won't shot you for just relaying the message, but up until now you have not suggested you have any special information. You have just made poor arguments and criticizing someone's arguments should not be confused with shooting the messenger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 4, 2017 Share #398 Posted March 4, 2017 there is no rational basis for that last remark. I am indeed moving on to another system for a part of my photography, and I have been using M cameras for over forty years and have purchased six digital M cameras over the last decade. So you assume that your particular experience represents "most people" who are considering whether or not to buy an M camera? That was what my comment said. Most people, not you in particular. And my remark is just as rational as the converse, put forth in this thread, that people won't buy the M10 because it lacks video. Perhaps some people won't, but obviously that number is not perceived by Leica as high enough to matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 4, 2017 Share #399 Posted March 4, 2017 Where did I say that my experience matches "most people?" In fact I have been careful not to make such silly assumptions. This is the second time you attack me for viewpoints that are not mine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 4, 2017 Share #400 Posted March 4, 2017 "unease with manual rangefinder focusing"... funny indeed. Got my first M4 in 1971 and i focus those things w/o even thinking of it. What i want is a modern rangefinder. Easy to understand no? Like Jaapv, you seem to have missed the part of my post that said "most people". There are lots of people who might otherwise consider an M, but are put off by the high cost or the unfamiliar rangefinder mechanism. I expect those numbers are much higher than the numbers of experienced rangefinder users who are put off by the lack of video in the M10. Leica is not trying to appeal to all users with the M platform. It is a niche market. You want a modern rangefinder? I don't see the problem then. The M10 is the most modern rangefinder ever produced, and an excellent tool for photography. I think what you want is a Sony rangefinder. Seriously, though. I don't see why the people complaining about video don't just buy a Sony RX1ii and adapt their M lenses to that. Problem solved. Or, you could buy an M240 now, which should be good for at least a decade. Or, you could wait and see what Leica has in store for the next few years. Lots of options. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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