M10? - Sorry, no!

[Vec]

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I have no real horse in this race. I have a M-P 240 (likely going on eBay tomorrow... :'-/ ) that takes video. I have an M10 that doesn't.

 

On one hand I look at the 240. I've taken video a few times but it doesn't suit my needs well enough. But that's not saying it doesn't work for some people.

 

At the same time, elsewhere on this forum, I think I've laid to rest that this is not a technical problem. (LiveView wouldn't work if there were heat issues)

 

This is a marketing issue. I get that. People that are passionate about video are let down by the M series of cameras -- and for some good reasons.

 

But then you have the contingent that says Leica are all about tradition. Leica invented 35mm photography. As they started this was a company that moved what we thought a camera could do. Before the Ur Leica you didn't have anything like that. If Leicas were only doing what was historically expected none of us would be here as Leica would be a footnote in the history books.

 

To say that a certain point in time, a certain set of capabilities, are sacrosanct is the opposite of what brought Leica into the world.

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[MarkP]

I bought the M10 for the performance of the new sensor performance (colour, DR, low-light/high-ISO performance), extended long exposure to 240sec,  improved viewfinder, and upgraded EVF (for fast lenses in low light, tripod landscapes for accurate framing, and use of R lenses).  The slightly more compact size is a nice bonus. 

 

Not impressed by the lack of virtual horizon/level.  For the very occasional times I needed video in the M240 it was convenient to have, and I would like the M10 to have had it as an option even if tucked away in a menu somewhere. However, the implementation was poor and an iPhone gives a more reliably acceptable result. 

[jaapv]

If most M10 users were Leica M afficianados, we wouldn't need the massive "M10 FAQ" - which mostly seems to be about explaining rangefinders to people who have never used one.

 

Because we noticed a lot of misinformation spreading through other forums, from the interested but underinformed.

 

I mean, "How to hold an M camera" and "Focusing the M10 rangefinder" and "Parallax shift" - what Leica M afficianado, or current user, needs help with those?

Those items have been in the FAQ since the introduction of the M8. I wrote them to start the FAQ in 2007. Actually I wrote large part of the FAQ without any idea whether it would be needed or not

[jaapv]

I love how Leica removes one feature that was literally present in only one M model and suddenly people unhappy with that omission are predicting the end of Leica and the end of rangefinders. This is all just a little too melodramatic. Really.

 

Jaapv, the way vinyl albums have made a comeback with young people, maybe the M7 is Leica's chance to capture new market share. The digital M10 will be known as a camera for us old fogeys.

dont misquote. I've been saying from day one that the M10 will be a success my point is all along that Leca is making a clear statement about the direction they want to take the system by stepping down the functionality. This will automatically diminish the appeal for those customers that appreciate the developments of the M240. If they had been consistent, the EVF would have gone as well -after all, it was as heavily criticised as video and the SL does it better-, but they were wise enough to leave it.

[Guest )-(]

I like it exactly as it is. I can't change it, so why worry at all.

 

It's amazing that one company continues to make a digital (and film!) version of what is after all a 1950s camera, baseplate and all.

Carry on!

[wattsy]

If they had been consistent, the EVF would have gone as well -after all, it was as heavily criticised as video and the SL does it better-, but they were wise enough to leave it.

 

 

Now you are being a little disingenuous. The EVF was mainly criticised because it was thought to be inadequate (and non-upgradeable) not that it was a feature per se.

[jaapv]

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Maybe, but the video was criticised for inadequate performance as well.

Come to think of it it is a bit strange. The video was removed because of a vocal "I don't want it so others shouldn't have it either" group despite being just an inobtrusive button that can be disabled, the EVF, despite being an ugly wart that needs a separate cover when not present attracted very few of such comments.

What will happen around the M10 when better EVFs come along will be interesting.

[Paul J]

Japp - we're friends, but six (6) people refusing to buy the M10 because it lacks video, out of over 800 - as per the Forum M10 survey - is the "miniscule percentage."

 

That number was six the day this thread began three weeks ago - it is still six.

But this forum is not really representative of all people and groups and needs. There are many who use this system who never visit forums and don't want to. Personally, I have an unusual fascination with this system which means I'm still here discussing, but others will just move on because they are forced to.

 

Leica will be the only one who ultimately knows, but you can never know which people are interested and don't buy it because something glaring is missing. They are the silent vote and the outcome will remain a mystery.

 

I think the lack of usb is going to be an interesting variable here. Just because those people aren't represented in great numbers here does not mean they aren't interested in the camera. To find out they can't tether, a requirement for some, means they will discount the camera entirely. But the same goes for video - It's become such an everyday thing in the world we live in and I don't want to carry another system for that.

 

But this is Leica's apparent focus and direction. They don't seem worried about limiting their market or turning existing customers away. Leica think and want the SL to be a replacement for this but it isn't, the cameras are vastly different. Instead, they are driving customers away, for the sake of what could be had in an optional grip.

[Paul J]

The trouble I have with your argument Paul, is that you don't know that Leica won't introduce those things for the M10. You seem to not only expect Leica to introduce them, but also to introduce them immediately at the release. If not introducing them immediately at the release is enough to cause you to switch cameras, then I think that begs the question of how fast do the upgrades have to be before you would switch anyway and I don't think Leica is every going to have as fast of upgrades as other companies--they are just too small. In the meantime, if you want a camera with video and USB, Leica still offers one, it may not be up to date, but it is still there. If you don't want it because it is not up to date, then again I think you are going to be frustrated with Leica's relatively slow update cycle. It is fine of course to want a faster update cycle and that can be a very reasonable reason to change cameras, but I don't think it makes sense to say that you are switching because Leica doesn't offer an M with USB and video (which they still do) or even to say because Leica doesn't offer them in the M10--they very well might in the future and may very well keep the M240 around until they do. You could say you are switching because you are unhappy waiting so long for an upgrade that is totally understandable, but saying you are switching because it isn't offer doesn't make sense to me when it still is being offered and might well be offered in this brand new generation of cameras in the future.

Well the trouble with your argument is it's based on the assumption that Leica will introduce a grip for certain. There has not been one piece of information to suggest that.

 

The message is clear - if you want tethering and video, Leica have the SL for that now. Or the 240 will be continued to be sold as an option. But lets face it, that is likely to only run out stock.

[HenryWang]

This has been beaten to death, buT making the body slimmer meant removing video and making the battery smaller. If you don't like it the M10 is not for you.

 

if the you change mind later, then the M10 is for you

[wattsy]

I think the lack of usb is going to be an interesting variable here. Just because those people aren't represented in great numbers here does not mean they aren't interested in the camera. To find out they can't tether, a bare minimum at least as an option for some people, means they will discount the camera entirely. But the same goes for video - It's become such an everyday thing in the world we live in and I don't want to carry another system for that.

 

 

I do agree with you that there are a lot of assumptions made in the forum based on reaction expressed here and that the forum is a largely self-selecting group that is unlikely to be fully representative of Leica's customer base. There is an orthodoxy that exists here – fascination with street photography, fast lenses, wide-open bokeh, decisive moment, sharpness, high ISO, etc. – that isn't the entirety of Leica camera usage. However, with the USB matter in particular I think you are flogging a dead horse. For every unorthodox, non-forum participating, potential customer for whom tethering is important there will be ten others who will see the lack of a USB port as a good thing and will be buying into the less is more, "no-frills", M10 as the "pure" hardcore photographer's camera. The same is probably true of video. Leica might have been tempted to drop live view too but it may be that feedback and sales data from the M262 indicates that this is a line best not crossed in the digital age.

[Paul J]

Yeah, just look at the demand for the M10 and it's obvious they goofed. I mean, except for the long waiting lists at every dealer and all the glowing reviews, who is going to buy a camera designed specifically for photographers? Crazy, right?

 

Seriously, though, look at all the M variants released since the M9. And you don't know what they've got up their sleeve for the next few years. You really can't judge the future of the company based on one model, just because you don't like that they omitted one particular feature (one the majority of M users really don't care that much about, no less).

Low supply/High Demand is not a modern concept.

 

Consider also, that these sort of discussions keep the product in the minds of potentials far longer.

 

Do we just not discuss it in hope something may miraculously change in future? Even when the message has been quite clear?

 

No. The squeaky wheel gets the oil.

[Peter H]

And it has been answered many times. Go back and read through this thread and the other one on video returning to the M. To pretend that all video adds is an extra button is completely disingenuous. You need a larger battery, room for heat dissipation, mic and monitor ports, etc., which leads to a larger camera. Then people start asking for HDMI and then firmware updates for greater resolution, more frames rates, etc. It's a rabbit hole and before you know it, you have a Sony. This is not what most M photographers want.

 

The only difference that video capability made that I was aware of in the M240 aside from the LV functionality that I liked a lot was the button. And I forgot it was there. It's not disingenuous to say that because it's true.

 

The body didn't grow, the heat sink was invisible to me, the clamour for more frame rates etc. was silent as far as I was aware.

 

I never used video and therefore I shan't miss it in the M10, but I think the urge to get rid of a virtually invisible feature that some people like is one of the less attractive manifestations of Leica traditionalism.

[Paul J]

I do agree with you that there are a lot of assumptions made in the forum based on reaction expressed here and that the forum is a largely self-selecting group that is unlikely to be fully representative of Leica's customer base. There is an orthodoxy that exists here – fascination with street photography, fast lenses, wide-open bokeh, decisive moment, sharpness, high ISO, etc. – that isn't the entirety of Leica camera usage. However, with the USB matter in particular I think you are flogging a dead horse. For every unorthodox, non-forum participating, potential customer for whom tethering is important there will be ten others who will see the lack of a USB port as a good thing and will be buying into the less is more, "no-frills", M10 as the "pure" hardcore photographer's camera. The same is probably true of video. Leica might have been tempted to drop live view too but it may be that feedback and sales data from the M262 indicates that this is a line best not crossed in the digital age.

 

 

I agree with all of that. In my mind I have mostly moved on, but given there is a connector for the grip there, and the potential that a P Model that may actually stand for a professionals needs and put it back, and given how many iterations of the 240 we saw, then I'm somewhat interested in hanging about until at least something else presents itself.

[Stef63]

I agree with all of that. In my mind I have mostly moved on, but given there is a connector for the grip there, and the potential that a P Model that may actually stand for a professionals needs and put it back, and given how many iterations of the 240 we saw, then I'm somewhat interested in hanging about until at least something else presents itself.

 

Paul, are you so sure the hidden connector is a connector for the grip?  It looks similar to the one on the M240 but it could also have only very limited functionalities.  For service reasons only for example.  

[Steve Spencer]

dont misquote. I've been saying from day one that the M10 will be a success my point is all along that Leca is making a clear statement about the direction they want to take the system by stepping down the functionality. This will automatically diminish the appeal for those customers that appreciate the developments of the M240. If they had been consistent, the EVF would have gone as well -after all, it was as heavily criticised as video and the SL does it better-, but they were wise enough to leave it.

 

The trouble that I have with this argument, Jaap, is that I think it is premature, IMO. We only know what functionality the base model M10 has, we don't know the functionality of the M10 of cameras including all its variants. Will there be an M10 variant with video? We don't know. If there is an M10 variant with video will the functionality improve? We don't know. If Leica makes a variant of the M10 that has video, and the same or a different variant can use a new grip that they make, and either of those variants can use a flash bracket, then I don't think it would be fair to say that this generation lost any functionality. Leica may have stepped down functionality, but I think it is not only possible but at least as likely that they have simply delayed upgrading the functionality in several areas for awhile. This would not be a stepping down a functionality, but rather a delayed roll out of all the functionality, and if this let them produce the base model M10 faster and allowed them to more fully develop the functionalities that come later then in my view that would be a step forward.

[Dirk Mandeville]

dont misquote. I've been saying from day one that the M10 will be a success my point.

Sorry, Jaapv, I wasn't very clear in my post. My first paragraph was in reference to a comment by lct as well as a few comments by others predicting Leica's doom (both in this thread and another thread). My second paragraph only was intended in reference to your comment. Should have used quotes, but I got lazy. Sorry for the confusion.

 

If they had been consistent, the EVF would have gone as well -after all, it was as heavily criticised as video and the SL does it better-, but they were wise enough to leave it.

They were entirely consistent. The EVF furthers the pursuit of photography, making it easier to focus and compose with certain lenses. Their goal wasn't to eschew technology, but to simplify the camera and design it as the ultimate tool for the photographer.

[cp995]

With respect Jaap, it is pulling in 'new' customers. eg. Me. I did not buy the M240 with video button because it had video (and all that goes with it). I have ordered and paid in full for the M10 (next week I hope) because it most closely represents my desire in a camera of this style ie. RF. I am confident that I am not alone, in fact I see the queue ahead of me.

 

Maybe I represent the 'new' customer they are are seeking!

 

Same to me!

I'm a Sony FF E-Mount User, mostly with M-Lenses, but beside I also use some RF film cameras.

I really like the RF photography since years and are now ready to by a digital "M"; but never with video an these huge amount of buttons (M240)

 

The reduction to "das Wesentliche" is a clear statement from Leica for the future and the M10 will adresse these customer's interests.

The applause can be seen all over the internet.

So video is only a niche ...

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Steve Spencer]

Well the trouble with your argument is it's based on the assumption that Leica will introduce a grip for certain. There has not been one piece of information to suggest that.

 

The message is clear - if you want tethering and video, Leica have the SL for that now. Or the 240 will be continued to be sold as an option. But lets face it, that is likely to only run out stock.

No my argument is not based on the assumption that Leica will introduce a grip for sure. My argument is just that your argument is premature until we know whether Leica will introduce grip, and I disagree that the argument is clear that if you want tethering and video you have the SL for now. In fact that statement is wrong. If you want video and tethering you can get an SL, but you still can get an M240, so if you want a M and tethering and/or video you still have an M option. If Leica drops the M240 before offering an M variant with functions that the M240 has that the M10 does not, then your argument would hold merit, but if the M240 is still available, then you are just complaining about the speed of the upgrade cycle and not the features actually being dropped from the M line. It is fine to complain about the speed of the upgrade cycle, but that shouldn't be misidentified as claiming Leica dropped something that you needed. They have not. You can still get an M with tethering and video if you like.

[Dirk Mandeville]

But this forum is not really representative of all people and groups and needs. There are many who use this system who never visit forums and don't want to. Personally, I have an unusual fascination with this system which means I'm still here discussing, but others will just move on because they are forced to.Leica will be the only one who ultimately knows, but you can never know which people are interested and don't buy it because something glaring is missing. They are the silent vote and the outcome will remain a mystery..

The problem with comments like these is that they assume so much for which there is no supportive evidence. Whose to say whether this forum represents the majority of Leica's current user base and/or potential customers? We have lots of longtime Leica users, as well as some that are new to the brand. Whose to say whether the inclusion of video matters to a larger customer base? Lack of it certainly didn't hurt sales of the M8 and M9. Did M240 sales spike because video was included? I highly doubt it. Finally, whose to say a future iteration of the M10 won't have video? We just don't know at this point.

 

I think most people that choose another camera over the Leica will do so because of the price or the unease with manual rangefinder focusing, not because of a lack of something like video.